help saving my job!

[Throttlebender]

I'm new to the board but here's my situation in a nut shell. I'm a 2000 hr pilot with 650 multi. I've been flying a Panther Navajo for a private owner for 2 years. We have a really good relationship ( We are friends socially etc...) I always look out for him in every way. In other words I've shown a lot of loyalty. He is upgrading to a King Air 200 which I found and have done all the work to secure and have looked out for his best interest. He is taking on a partner who has been a mentor of his so he defers to this person. the partner comes from the Marqui program and knows nothing of aviation but like the whole "show" of it all.. I was planning on going to training this week but suddenly they tell me they want to put it with a 135 "managment" company. I'M OUT! I'm trying to crunch numbers and show them that they are about to be robbed by this company. Does anyone have any input on how I can show them that is a mistake? If they want to genereate income I figured I could do a lease agreement with an prospective 3rd partner and save them managment fees etc... I can also put the plane on a 135 certificate iwth a friend also operating Navajos and not pay any managment fees. We could even put his current Navajo on it and maintain a back-up aricraft. Basically I need advice on if there is any real benefit to them going with a stray 135 outfit. It just seems crazy to me. Any help would be most appreciated.

 

[Roadie]

Where did they get the idea of putting the airplane on a management contract with a 135 outfit? Some slick-talking salesman?

I would get with someone at NBAA (join if you're not already a member). I'm sure they could provide some helpful suggestions, and have ample resources such as their Travel $ense program which examines all the various options.

Get all your ducks in a row and present them with some viable alternatives.

 

[Rick1128]

One suggestion would be to discuss with your current boss about how 135 aircraft tend to get trashed, especially the low end aircraft like KA's and Lears. Another possibility would be that the owners insist that you go with the aircraft to protect their interests. Most good 135/management companies don't have a big heart-ache about that. If your current boss is such a good friend, he should do that for you. And that could be a good opportunity for you also.

 

[guido411]

Throttlebender,

Be careful about your "3rd party lease" idea, I suppose this post should be in the regulations section but here's my $0.02. The way it sounds to me is that your 3 party agreement is not really including 3 parties. You work for the owner and that makes you the same party i.e. two party agreement and for a "lease" to be legal there has to be a middle man or "third party" (I'm sorry for all the stupid quotation marks). If you (you means you AND the owner) decide to offer your airplane up to others and take money for it other than the pro-rated share, you are infringing upon the rights granted to those that hold Part 135 certificates. The only way around this is for YOU to be the aircraft manager. Do you want to start your own business? A lease can work if the airplane and the pilot come from different agreements. The Navajo comes from the owner to the "3rd party" and the pilot comes from your management business. I use the term "business" loosely as since you're a commercial pilot you can be hired to fly any aircraft under Part 91 as long as you don't provide the airplane. So if you left your current employer, HE made up a lease for his airplane, and then the 3rd company hired YOU as the pilot, everything is kosher (in a gray area/loophole kind of way.)

Anyway, that is what an established "management company" has in advantage over you, most of them have Part 135 certificates anyway in addition to being that middle man I talked about. If you can get your hands on a copy of the latest Business Aviation Journal (I think that's the title) publication (it's red and green) it's all about Illegal Charter Ops and it can explain in detail what I'm talking about. The flip side of the coin is they tell you flat out that the people that are doing black market charter do NOT get caught. All this crap about "probable cause" etc.

A quick response to Rick's post: Charter airplanes in general do get "trashed" quicker than a general aviation airplane, but the main reason for this is that they get USED more. A LOT more. You've got the normal business use and then whatever charter you can drum up besides. People are generally respectful to property of others, especially those that use private airplanes. But FREIGHT on the other hand. . .nothing will tear up an aircraft faster.

I think Rick is right though, if your boss really likes you and treats you well, make him tell whomever the operator ends up being that you go with the airplane. Or talk him out of the extra revenue idea and just get a King Air guy to ride with you till you meet the insurance req's then you're set. If he NEEDS the extra revenue created by the occasional lease/charter then he probably can't afford a King Air anyway, when he figures this out then you're DEFINITELY on the street. Sorry I've been so long winded. Hope nothing but the best for you.

 

[TaxiDriver]

Rick is correct, if you and your owner have a strong relationship, he should make you part of the management agreement with the 135 company. Any good management company will accept that condition when gaining an aircraft on their certificate. From a management point of view, I would want to keep the owner extremely happy......one way to ensure this is to hire his current pilot....although you might have to spend a few hours with another pilot gaining experience in the King Air when flying the owner.

Of course if the owner will not go to bat for you......go have a friendly chat with the management company. They might want to pick you up directly.

Also, for whatever it's worth.....if you want to show the owner your deal is a better option than going to a managment company, just be aware that everything negative you say about that managment company your owner will eventually tell that company when negotiating the contract (in order to get a better deal). If that were to happen, good luck getting a job with that company!!!

 

[Kingairrick]

That really sucks!

my only input would be that if training cost is an issue, FSI Lakeland has 200 Initial for around $7500. That is much cheaper than ICT. Good program also...

Good luck.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

No, charter planes get trashed because scumbags who ride in them think they can trash it like a hotel room because they paid "big bucks" to rent it. Some company pays for it to send 8 lackeys out on some all day tour....and they play big shot and trash it.

- and 99% of the time the manangement company does not care. Its not theirs and they dont want to lose a client. They dont give a $hit about the owner.

Plus the pilots certainly dont care - they are underpaid, worked to death, and are always looking for another job.....beat up the brakes?? whatever....land hard?....whatever......leave it outside in bad weather?....whatever...you get the point..next thing is some insurance claim or another - and guess who pays?

I have seen this all the way from barons to GV's Its all the same.

Another classic is the owner who changes management co's every 12 months because "someone is always screwing him"....duh.

Nice of your boss -(your "friend")- have you do all the legwork with finding a new King Air. sounds like your "friend" wanted to save the finders fees from the managemnt company....did you get any bonus or fees for your extra work? I doubt it.

I dont think your boss will change his mind. Does he like a pristine aircraft? Let him go with the management company, in 6 months he will call back crying about how bad he is getting hosed - mainly in fees and MX (they will rip him off).

Plus, even if you save this job for now - you know this owner if unpredictable - the aircraft could be gone or off to another management company at anytime and you will be the last to know - the pilots always are.

You sound like a hard working, dedicated guy that a real owner would appreciate - move on to better.

This guy is not your "friend"


F HIM - I say.!! - his loss.

 

[100-1/2]

Easy fix, really...

It sounds like you are willing to do a little sweat labor to secure your interest. Therefore;

Pursuade your friend to INSIST with the partner when communicating with the management company to REVIEW any CONTRACT OFFERS. This is important and should probably be looked-over by an aviation law attorney and particularly one with in depth experience with 91.23 and various aspects of "Operational Control" under FAR 135. Stress the importance that not doing this, potentially resulting in substantial financial impact and/or little if any net income from many management contracts out there these days.

Recommended Solution: Sell yourself and your ability to acquire an air carrier certificate. It is a little bit beuracratic of a process, however, you will experience a minimal impact in insurance and allow the aircraft to generate revenue while not flying for one of the owners. Point out to the owners, that this process requires a little time and will be very rewarding. Certification can occur very quickly in some FSDO Regions and using only One PIC on a certificate relieves many manual and staff requirements aiding to the brievity of the certification process. It is unlikely you will meet the CP requirements of FAR 119 and may need to Pay someone to assume the role and act as an agent for service until you are qualified. There are also many certificate holders that will permit additional aircraft on their certificate for monthly compensation and/or use of aircraft. Either option will be far superior to a managment company that in some form will charge your boss's partners to use their own aircraft and limit it's availability to them. Given the obviously suave sales pitch as presented 3rd hand, It is likely the Maintenance and other costly expenses and responsibilities will be that of your boss's partners IN ADDITION to the management fees, contract fees, service fees, storage fees, Fuel fees (often w/ surcharges), etc. etc. etc.

PM me for a direction on the next step. AFTER you have dissuaded this guy from the management route. Otherwise it is Futile and he will just have to figure it out for himself. Unfortunately, this will not be until you are long gone out of the equation.

best of luck,
100-1/2

 

[G100driver]

dont think your boss will change his mind. Does he like a pristine aircraft? Let him go with the management company, in 6 months he will call back crying about how bad he is getting hosed - mainly in fees and MX (they will rip him off).

G200, did you and I work for the same management company?

 

[jeb]

help saving my job

I have been involved with a management company before. Get all your cost listed up front, your boss would be surprised at the cost. You didn't list the monthly fee, if I took a guess I would say maybe 1,000. I could be off a few hundred dollars. Your insurance could also increases ours went up 18,000 under a fleet policy. How many hours a month would they try to charter and look at there cancellation policy if they have you a trip and the owner needs the plane. I wouldn't get involved with flying for a owner and then also being under a management, you have to watch your back. Just my two cents. You didn't mention what part of the country you are located. Good luck and hope it works out

 

[cptsesso]

Throttlebender,

I would follow Jebs advice. Have your boss take a really hard look at the deal infront of him. If he is so worried about making a profit from the plane, he probably can't afford it to begin with.

I have gone through the whole 135 thing for a B200 and the numbers just don't work out to an owners benefit, unless they charter it out very, very frequently. Most don't. It is a very rare occurance where a 91/135 king air makes a reasonable profit for the owner. Granted it will make a few dollars if flown enough, but that will be offset by the additional maintenance required from the abuse the plane is going to take.

What the management company is looking at with your "friend/boss" is a meal ticket. It does not cost them anything to have your boss's king air on 135. Even if the plane sits, they still make money. However, unless they already have a king air 200 on their certificate, your boss will pay for the whole certification process (or atleast the majority) to add a new aircraft type to their 135 certificate (very costly). If they are like everyone else, they will receive a monthly management fee ($1000.00 minimum), they will definately add a mark up to all the maintenance performed (which will be a lot more than if kept under part 91), and like others have said the plane will definately be abused.

Insurance will go up more than 40% or more when you go from private to charter. Also, depending on the deal, when your boss uses the plane he will most likely be charged a daily fee for the pilots, probably $250 to 300 a day for a captain and $150 to 200 for a co-pilot, which the insurance company will most likely require for the plane.

I know it is tough for you. These "big shot" owners want to have all of the expensive toys but always try to find the cheap way out. They will be suckered into a supposed great deal and end up getting screwed in the end. Your boss is trying to swim in waters he knows nothing about, that is when the sharks come to feed.

One suggestion I have for you is to talk to him about bringing in another partner. This will lessen his financial burden and avoid this whole 135 fantasy of his.

Good luck.

 

[Throttlebender]

Thanks Everyone!

Thanks very much for all of the great advice. However, it seems as though the deal is done. They're going with the 135 "managment" scenario. I had a talk with the boss and gave him a couple of very viable options but due to the pressures from his new partner he feels backed into the corner. Not a very good sign to say the least! He did say that he would strongly recommend that they hire me on but no guarantees.He said that I may have lost the battle but may still win the war. They are only signing on for 6 months. If they don't like it well, I might be back in. In the meantime he wanted me to apply so that I could build King Air time, but we all know they won't hire me. They have take care of the people that are already there. It could be a good thing actually because then I won't be there to take up the slack and they're more likely to screw up. He is going to hang on to the Navajo for a while so that I can keep flying. Now I have to generate a little revenue with it and look for some turbine time as well. I'm still showing some loyalty by helping the new company get up to speed on the aquisition of the new plane. talk about swallowing my pride!! I just wanted them to know that I'm still looking out for them. Silly...who knows? Anyway, thanks again! Anyone know where I can pick up some turbine time around Cincinnati?

 

[jeb]

Help Saving My Job

Throttlebender,
Sorry to hear that you are on the outs with the 200 job, hang in there. You said you are out of the Cincinnati area, did they go with EJM out of Lunken? I was surprised your boss didn't make you part of the deal. He could have insised that you be used as at least the SIC on 135 trips. Maybe its not to late, someone has to act in the best intrest of the company. If not wait till he sees a few maintenance bills. I know one company that charges .8hrs to do post flights at the end of the day. I know there are people on the forum that could give you some insight if this changes around in your favor. Good Luck

 

[Resume Writer]

Re: Thanks Everyone!

Thanks very much for all of the great advice. However, it seems as though the deal is done. They're going with the 135 "managment" scenario. I had a talk with the boss and gave him a couple of very viable options but due to the pressures from his new partner he feels backed into the corner. Not a very good sign to say the least! He did say that he would strongly recommend that they hire me on but no guarantees.He said that I may have lost the battle but may still win the war. They are only signing on for 6 months. If they don't like it well, I might be back in. In the meantime he wanted me to apply so that I could build King Air time, but we all know they won't hire me. They have take care of the people that are already there. It could be a good thing actually because then I won't be there to take up the slack and they're more likely to screw up. He is going to hang on to the Navajo for a while so that I can keep flying. Now I have to generate a little revenue with it and look for some turbine time as well. I'm still showing some loyalty by helping the new company get up to speed on the aquisition of the new plane. talk about swallowing my pride!! I just wanted them to know that I'm still looking out for them. Silly...who knows? Anyway, thanks again! Anyone know where I can pick up some turbine time around Cincinnati?

Throttlebender,

I can appreciate your loyalty, however, it appears that none of them are being loyal to you. This kind of reminds me of a bad breakup situation.

Let's say your significant other decides that they want to date or marry someone else. But just in case it does not work out, they want to leave the option open to come back to you. Further, they want to "let" you date them too, while they are with the other person. Would you wait around for that?

I would respectfully cut your losses. I have clients with less time than you who have gotten great jobs - in fact, one that has about half of your multi time that was hired by a regional airline just last week. So, do not sacrifice your obvious integrity for their obvious lack thereof.

Kathy

 

[PC12Cowboy]

HMMMM

Instead of the King Air ....GET A PC 12!!!!lol
better cabin...better avionics....and CHEAP to operate..lol
Rick not taking a shot at you King Air guys, we just get it done the swiss way!