Had a hard landing today

[Murdoughnut]

I was doing T&G in a 152 at my home field today. We were landing on 35 and the wind was 33010, but it was obvious they were gusting a bit. On my first three landings I had been drifting a bit to the right just before touch down, but otherwise they went ok (wasn't dipping the left wing enough I figure). On my fourth (and what turned out to be final) landing I was floating a bit in ground effect, as I was probably about 5kts too fast. All of a sudden, while I was about two or three feet off the ground, I dropped fairly hard. It wasn't horrible, but it was the hardest landing I've had, even going back to when I was a student. When I dropped the nose wheel, it started shimmying pretty strong (strong enough that it felt like the whole plane was shaking). I called for full stop, and turned off the runway. When I turned off, the shimmying all of a sudden stopped and the nose gear returned to normal.

I let the A&P know about it, but he didn't seem too concerned. I came in with less positive pitch attitude than normal, but I'm pretty sure I didn't put it down on the nose. Did I just jar something loose or what? I was afraid I broke the plane, but the A&P said it "happens all the time".

I'm putting my embarassment aside and seeking some insight from you guys. Thanks in advance.

 

[Learsforsale]

I let the A&P know about it, but he didn't seem too concerned. I came in with less positive pitch attitude than normal, but I'm pretty sure I didn't put it down on the nose. Did I just jar something loose or what? I was afraid I broke the plane, but the A&P said it "happens all the time".

I'm putting my embarassment aside and seeking some insight from you guys. Thanks in advance.

The nosewheel shimmying (or shimmieing, not sure) happens all the time in the DA-20s and I am sure its for the same reason as what you are describing. I think its just because you had too much groundspeed when you let the nose wheel down, and the nose wheel spins up too fast. I always just held the stick back, or in your case the yoke, to take some of the load off the nose wheel and go easy on the brakes. Once your ground speed bleeds off, it should stop vibrating.

I've never flown a 152, does it have a shimmy dampner?

 

[threegreen]

Sounds to me like a landing the 152 was built for! Sometimes the nosewheel will shimmy if you allow it to drop too soon or if the shock strut is wearing out. Just remember to keep back pressure on the yoke throughout the rollout, especially after a stinker of a landing.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

It sounds like the shimmy damper had it's final crusher landing... Those things only last for so long in the training enviornment... Yeah, don't worry though... Easy fix for the A&P's...

 

[troy]

most cessna singles do this, the same as a cart with caster wheels. When the speed is too fast, they will shimmy. The dampeners do some, not eliminate the problem.

 

[epic!]

dont worry about it, i botched many landings when doing my private, from the sounds of it if thats the worst you've has so far then you are doing pretty good

 

[Doug Parker]

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Flare to Land..........Squat to Pee !!!



.

 

[moonlight]

Had a friend that was demonstrating a short field landing during his private ride, and stomped on the brakes in the 152 so hard, he locked up the tires and managed to flat spot them. The examiner was pretty cool about it, all he said was, "I'd like to get you through the rest of the check ride, but the plane is no longer airworthy!" DPE had to take the controls and fly the plane home. No pink slip, they simply continued later after the plane got some new Dunlops.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Thanks for you guys' remarks - definitely made me feel better about the whole situation. After reading your posts I've come to the realization that I probably came in fast and (because I had my head in my a$$) pushed the nose over just a bit while in ground effect. I figure the nose gear probably made contact right after the mains, and the force of the impact combined with the speed made the nose wheel shimmie. In retrospect, I probably was in a hurry to get the plane on the ground because I was starting to drift a bit when I applied rudder to straighten the nose.

So the lessons I've learned from this FUBAR landing (and please correct me if I'm wrong) ...
1) Slow down
2) Try to land on the windward main first to keep from drifting
3) Wait for the plane to sink while in ground effect

 

[CFICANFLY]

...pushed the nose over just a bit while in ground effect.

Add "Don't push nose over in ground effect" to your list of lessons learned from this FUBAR landing!

'canfly

 

[cezzna]

Single engine Cessnas do the shimmy dance all the time. Don't worry about it, it's one of the weak links in the single engine Cessnas. They are durable as all get out though. When I was in college someone told me they tested the landing gear by dropping the plane from 17 ft. , free-falling it onto the pavement. I never looked this flying urban legend up but it wouldn't surprise me. Of all the trainers the 152 can take a licking and keep on ticking.

 

[EMB Skillz]

I was doing T&G in a 152 at my home field today. We were landing on 35 and the wind was 33010, but it was obvious they were gusting a bit. On my first three landings I had been drifting a bit to the right just before touch down, but otherwise they went ok (wasn't dipping the left wing enough I figure). On my fourth (and what turned out to be final) landing I was floating a bit in ground effect, as I was probably about 5kts too fast. All of a sudden, while I was about two or three feet off the ground, I dropped fairly hard. It wasn't horrible, but it was the hardest landing I've had, even going back to when I was a student. When I dropped the nose wheel, it started shimmying pretty strong (strong enough that it felt like the whole plane was shaking). I called for full stop, and turned off the runway. When I turned off, the shimmying all of a sudden stopped and the nose gear returned to normal.

I let the A&P know about it, but he didn't seem too concerned. I came in with less positive pitch attitude than normal, but I'm pretty sure I didn't put it down on the nose. Did I just jar something loose or what? I was afraid I broke the plane, but the A&P said it "happens all the time".

I'm putting my embarassment aside and seeking some insight from you guys. Thanks in advance.

Aint got SKILLZ! I heard of this happening once, and the nose gear collapsed on the next flight. Somebody could get hurt because you weren't assertive about damaging an aircraft.

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[NW_Pilot]

Had a friend that was demonstrating a short field landing during his private ride, and stomped on the brakes in the 152 so hard, he locked up the tires and managed to flat spot them. The examiner was pretty cool about it, all he said was, "I'd like to get you through the rest of the check ride, but the plane is no longer airworthy!" DPE had to take the controls and fly the plane home. No pink slip, they simply continued later after the plane got some new Dunlops.

Ouch, Tires are not cheap!!! The tires on my 150 are about 3 years old and still look like new! You should not have to touch the brakes!!!!!! Providing you have enough runway to roll to a stop or a safe exit speed. Oh Yea Brakes pads & other brake components cost money also!!!

Now!! If I was the FBO I would have insisted that the student go out and learn how to do short field with-out using brakes "that is, if they have instructors that knows how" before I would let them rent my equipment and send the student the bill for the tire replacement.

 

[say again]

Yeah, I'm in that slump of hard, firm, ********************ty landings-and quite honestly, I really don't care anymore!! They are safe, and eventually I'll have a series of OK ones.:beer:

 

[OrionFE]

152 Shimmey

The Cessna's are notoriuos for the shimmey. Keep the back pressure on and most of the time it will correct it. Also, the dampner may need serviced. I had that problem all the time with my 172 and finally baught a Lord Shimmey Dampner. Works great no complaints from the students and young CFI's.

 

[mcjohn]

Wait till you're a CFI.....you'll have about 30 hard landings a day that make yours look beautiful. Gotta love the X wind days!

 

[washout]

murdougnnut....

Like everyone else here has said, if you progressively add more back pressure as you slow down until you have full aft stick, that will help. Also don't get TOO slow during flare in an attempt to keep the nose from shimmying after touchdown. Gusty crosswinds, in my opinion, aren't really a time to do full stall landings. Fly it to the ground with a couple knots to spare. Maybe even consider using less than full flaps.

Just my opinion, which is worth about as much as a boat anchor made of styrofoam.

 

[washout]

That is, progressively add full back pressure AFTER you land.....kind of an important detail I omitted in the previous post.

 

[Gofish]

Mrdoughnut...sounds like you've earned your c-150 shimmy wings. We've all been there and done that. Don't be ashamed. My cessna had a pretty bad shimmy too. The trick is aerodynamic breaking and less break pedal...but always mind your speed on a gusty crosswind day. You don't want to be slow in gusts and windsheer.

 

[mcjohn]

Had a student ask me how aerodynamic braking works the other day and I blanked out. I said something stupid like "I dunno, it just makes the mains press into the runway better." I used to spit out a great reason but it has slipped my mind. We're talking about the full back yoke right? Anyone care to refresh my memory?

Oh wait, I think I have it........It takes weight off the nose gear and transfers it to the main gear. By putting on brakes the weight of the airplane is thrown foward toward the nose gear which has no brakes so the full aft yoke will attempt to pull some of that weight off the nose and put it back on the mains where the brakes are.

Patting myself on the back.

 

[Groundpounder]

Don't feel too bad, I got to fly with pax on board for the first time yesterday and had a stinker of a landing. In my defense it was very gusty, but I was a bit embarrased. Oh well, the pax were cool about it, they said I did great.....lol

 

[mcjohn]

I was flying a little too heavy with passengers on board a while back and when it came time to land the only way I could do it properly was to touch down with a ground speed that was way higher than normal. Probably around 70-80 knots in a C172. Airspeed wasn't showing that but once I began to touch down I realized I was going waaaay faster than normal. Elevator control was extremely sluggish and all the weight on board made braking take for ever. I had drained some fuel out to bring the weight and balance just into the legal before the flight with all seats filled. I think my CG was a little more aft then I calculated for. One of the guys in the back seat said he was 160 pounds. He looked closer to 200 lbs but I took his word for it. (Stupid I know!) It was a stiff X wind day and it was by far the scariest landing I've ever made. Smooth touch down but the plane wouldn't quit flying. Each gust was blowing us off center line (even with aileron into the wind) and trying to pick the plane back up so I had no friction for braking. Ground roll was probably 2000 feet! Don't make my overweight mistake folks.

 

[wt219200]

Aint got SKILLZ! I heard of this happening once, and the nose gear collapsed on the next flight. Somebody could get hurt because you weren't assertive about damaging an aircraft.

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Apparently EMB Skillz didn't train in a Cessna because if he/she did they would listen to the description of the incident and recognize it as the problem with the shimmy dampeners that everyone else is talking about. Maybe you bought your time and never instructed thats why your flying a EMB170 for a regional, maybe maybe not. Another thing, to say that the student could have got someone hurt by not being assertive. First, most students wouldn't say anything to maintenance but this person did describe the problem to mx. Not many students would also have the balls to come on flight info and describe a mistake they made and ask for advice. So that was a great post EMB can't wait to hear more of your wisdom.

 

[FatAlbert]

Funny! I was flying the airplane that day and had the nose wheel collapse. Chief Pilot said it was because of my weight:bawling:

 

[mcjohn]

Not many students would also have the balls to come on flight info and describe a mistake they made and ask for advice. So that was a great post EMB can't wait to hear more of your wisdom.

"I'VE GOT BIG BALLS!" I flew out of weight and balance AND admitted my wrong doing here to pass on a valuable learning experience. So now that I've proven I'm a moron at least I'VE GOT BIG BALLS!

I'm outta here....see you'ens later. (you'ens = back woods of western N.C. talk where we're so inbred we fly planes out of W and B and don't understand MTOB.)

 

[mcjohn]

Good morning.

 

[Fugawe]

Had a student ask me how aerodynamic braking works the other day and I blanked out. I said something stupid like "I dunno, it just makes the mains press into the runway better." I used to spit out a great reason but it has slipped my mind. We're talking about the full back yoke right? Anyone care to refresh my memory?

Oh wait, I think I have it........It takes weight off the nose gear and transfers it to the main gear. By putting on brakes the weight of the airplane is thrown foward toward the nose gear which has no brakes so the full aft yoke will attempt to pull some of that weight off the nose and put it back on the mains where the brakes are.

Patting myself on the back.

Your aerobrake comments are interesting -- I"ve not really heard that term in quite a while (since military days). We'd aerobrake the F-15 and 16, and T-38 down to about 80 knots, then fly the nose down and wheel brake. Saved the brakes for sure. Early turn-offs were seldom an issue.

I've not seen it used by design in 16 airline years. It's generally not as effective on the higher cambered, low swept jets. They don't fly very fast (relatively) on final either, so not that much speed to dissipate. I don't do much GAA time, but haven't seen it used that much there either.

The following short article is an interesting take on the aerobrake. Maybe too much info, but interesting (from Aero-News):


Aerodynamic Braking and Lightplanes

The Air Force is big on “aerodynamic braking”, especially in fighter aircraft. Holding the nose high exposes a larger cross-section of the aircraft to the relative wind, increasing drag and helping to slow it down. The practice apparently came along with the advent of swept-wing fighters and reconnaissance aircraft, which tend to have very high stalling speeds and therefore long landing rolls (Note: increasing stall speed requires a faster landing speed for stall avoidance; faster speeds in turn require longer runways to dissipate landing energy). Aerodynamic braking is an alternative to ungainly drag ‘chutes that appeared with the introduction of these same airplanes.
Will aerodynamic braking reduce your landing roll in typical light airplanes? Probably not. Drag is an exponential function of airspeed, and at usual landing speeds of prop-driven airplanes simply aren’t moving fast enough for additional drag to be much of a factor. There are, however, several tangible advantages in holding the nose up during the landing roll (in tricycle gear aircraft) until minimum control effectiveness speed:

• Improved controllability. If too much airplane weight is borne on the nosewheel at high speeds, a nosewheel shimmy or vibration may develop and steering may overpower aerodynamic (rudder) directional control.
• Less stress on structure. Nose gear mountings, engine mounts and engine firewalls may all incur undue stress if lowered to the ground at a high speeds.
• Aircraft longevity. There’s evidence in some cases that letting the nose down at high speeds initiates a bending force along airplane fuselages, perhaps accelerating fatigue in other parts of the airframe.
• Nose tire life. Keep the nosewheel off the ground at high speeds and the tire lasts much longer.
• Adoration of pilots and nonpilots alike, as you provide a smoother landing experience.

Aero-tip of the day: Maybe not for the same reasons as fighter types, in most cases holding the nose up until it gently settled to the ground is an good technique in light airplanes

 

[pilotmyf]

Aint got SKILLZ! I heard of this happening once, and the nose gear collapsed on the next flight. Somebody could get hurt because you weren't assertive about damaging an aircraft.

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******************************

 

[Kream926]

how much aerodynamic breaking are you really gonna get outta a fitty-duece?

no where in the POH does it say anything about aerodynamic breaking in the short field procedure ( im assuming by aerodynamic you mean pulling back on the elevator). MCjohn, it does however mention retracting the wing flaps to transfer the weight from the wings and back down to the tires, dont confuse yourself. i had a 45 min debate with an examiner about this during my CFI ride