GV crosswind technique

[AA717driver]

GV--I tried to send this as a private message but your box was full. So, I'll throw it out to you and everyone else here...

I was having a discussion with another guy in my department last night and he was criticizing another individual who "makes crosswind landings in the G550 the way he would in a Cessna 152". That is, near the runway, wing down into the wind and using rudder to track the centerline.

He contends you are risking a wing-strike using that method. I didn't want to debate him at his party but that is the way I've made crosswind landings in everything from light planes to 767's.

I know on some airplanes there is a max bank angle near the runway in landing configuration. I don't have my G550 manual handy but I don't remember a specific angle of bank limit in that configuration.

Do you have a different technique for crosswind landings in the G550 and is there a bank angle limitation?

Thanks in advance and Happy New Year! TC.

 

[Valkyrie]

http://www.gulfstream.com/product_support/technical_pubs/pdfs/GV/GV_OIS_01.pdf

"Crosswind Landing Procedure

During the final approach phase of the crosswind landing the pilot should fly aligned with or slightly upwind of the runway center line utilizing crab into the wind sufficient to stabilize the aircraft in drift. Due to the varying crosswind components the pilot must change the amount of crab-angle as the airplane progresses down the approach path. Avoid excessive airspeeds during the approach. A prolonged float after flare will increase pilot work load during touchdown. Drift correction during touchdown is far easier when the pilot can control the timing of the touchdown.


​

Approaching touchdown, the rudder is applied to align the aircraft fuselage with the runway and simultaneous opposite aileron is applied to achieve zero drift. This combination of wing down/opposite rudder will be coordinated throughout the last portion of the landing approach until touchdown. Touchdown with the upwind landing gear first, then set the other main wheel on the runway without delay. Utilize the rudder as needed to keep the airplane on the runway centerline. Use aileron into the wind as necessary on the initial landing to keep the upwind landing gear on the runway. Immediately on touchdown lower the nose wheel to the runway and supply sufficient forward pressure on the yoke to maintain nose wheel contact with the runway. As the roll out speed decreases, the pilot should shift directional control to nose wheel steering and normal braking. The copilot, when directed by the pilot, will take control of the yoke and maintain forward pressure and aileron into the wind. The use of thrust reversers is the pilot’s option, but be aware that in crosswinds, thrust reversers are destabilizing. Do not deploy the thrust reversers at the expense of maintaining the airplane down the runway centerline."​

 

[AA717driver]

Thanks, Valkyrie! That's what I thought. Guess I'll have the find out what my friend is thinking. HNY!TC

 

[semperfido]

it matters little what technique one uses as long as the end result has one landing on the centerline in the 1st one third of the runway tracking straight down the runway. there are afterall many ways to accomplish any task.

i think your friend analysis is dubious. a gulfstream x-wind landing technique is just like the one learned in primary flight school. the g550 is pretty liberal in the x-wind dept. just stay in your own comfort zone.

 

[AA717driver]

I can see a problem with planes that have a lot of sweepback and if you are real slow or you start to kick out the crab from the middle marker... The 727 was like that.

Could I tag the wing on a GV? Sure but in a normal x-wind landing I don't see a problem.

I guess what I'm looking for now is a bank angle beyond which you are in imminent danger of a wingstrike.TC

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

The G550 has no published limitation like this.

The Citation X has an issue with crosswind / wing strike from what I understand.

Opinions are like a$$holes...everyone has 'em.

Ace

 

[HawkDrvr]

Just an uneducated 2 cents here, but I would think you would really have to try to wing strike the GV. I do know for a fact that the Citation X has this problem. Anyhow, I would imagine the description from the POH would have covered this if it were an issue at all...

 

[bafanguy]

I can see a problem with planes that have a lot of sweepback and if you are real slow or you start to kick out the crab from the middle marker... The 727 was like that.
TC

I suppose all airplanes have unique geometry affecting this issue, but the 727, as an example, involves more than bank angle alone. TWA put out a bulletin on this long ago for the 727. Several factors come into play, bank, pitch, flap setting, and MLG strut compression. If I remember, in some combinations of factors, you'd drag an OB flap before you'd get a wingtip.

Just an example for purposes of discussion( the bulletin is buried in my stuff in the basement, but I seem to remember charts and graphs, etc.). This information not approved for use in air navigation...

 

[filejw]

AA Driver,
What method does your friend use?

 

[TCA]

There are a large number of variables as stated above from Bafanguy.
An approximation of the problem may simply be stated as follows.

Assuming a GIV with the gear up @ 6.8 feet off the runway the strike angle would occur @ 10 degrees. Maybe. The G550 should strike the runway in a 10 degree bank @ 8.2 feet above the ground.


Just some simple math numbers for discussion.

Still Climbing
TCA

 

[cart]

....drift (track) is controlled by aileron, nose (wheels) pointed down the runway with the rudder. This applies to takeoff or landing---airplane doesn't know the diffference. Put your airplane on ice (nose wheel steering worthless) and you'll learn this real fast. Fly it to the chocks!!

 

[semperfido]

I guess what I'm looking for now is a bank angle beyond which you are in imminent danger of a wingstrike.TC

during an actual landing in that much wind (probably gusty) if you were the pilot flying you wouldn't be able to determine bank angle with any accuracy that close to ground (too busy looking outside and flying) and the non flying guy wouldn't catch an excessive bank angle until it was too late. i think you would run out of rudder before you could get enough bank angle to strike the tip unless it was very gusty and the pilot was over-controlling. what i am trying to say is, a bank angle beyond which you are in imminent danger of a wingstrike, for practical purposes, is useless info except for academic discussions like this.

 

[AA717driver]

Even in a max-demonstrated x-wind situation, I've never come close to 10 deg. of bank. You'd have to be doing whifferdills(like the QS IV I saw at ASE last week... ) to get that much bank that close to the ground.

filejw--I don't know how he does it--he's an excellent pilot but I'll ask him what he's talking about.

Thanks for all the input.TC

 

[Flying Illini]

Even in a max-demonstrated x-wind situation, I've never come close to 10 deg. of bank. You'd have to be doing whifferdills(like the QS IV I saw at ASE last week... ) to get that much bank that close to the ground.

...and a "whifferdill" would be what?

 

[GVFlyer]

...and a "whifferdill" would be what?

A "Whifferdill" is an classic aerobatic maneuver very similar in appearance to a "Whoop-de-Doo." Both are favored by a class of pilots normally called "Cowboys."

GV

 

[hogdriver00]

don't forget

Not to be confused with a "Shwoopen-housen"

 

[AA717driver]

A "whifferdill" is any maneuver used in an attempt to salvage an approach which, to the normal obsever, would appear to be unsalvagable.

Or..."S-turns" all the way to the ground. Or...On the ground, any time you can see all the upper surface of the horizontal stabilizer on a T-tailed aircraft which is inside the outer marker(even better if they are inside the middle marker! ).

Or...

Most approaches by SWA aircraft! TC

 

[GVFlyer]

GV--I tried to send this as a private message but your box was full. So, I'll throw it out to you and everyone else here...

I was having a discussion with another guy in my department last night and he was criticizing another individual who "makes crosswind landings in the G550 the way he would in a Cessna 152". That is, near the runway, wing down into the wind and using rudder to track the centerline.

He contends you are risking a wing-strike using that method. I didn't want to debate him at his party but that is the way I've made crosswind landings in everything from light planes to 767's.

I know on some airplanes there is a max bank angle near the runway in landing configuration. I don't have my G550 manual handy but I don't remember a specific angle of bank limit in that configuration.

Do you have a different technique for crosswind landings in the G550 and is there a bank angle limitation?

Thanks in advance and Happy New Year! TC.

I can't add anything to the OIS; it was written by Flight Test. The Big G saw a 35 knot crosswind up at NASA Wallops during certification, but it only counts if a test pilot from the FAA's servicing ACO is at the controls and one wasn't. A 28 knot crosswind was what the FAA saw.

Banging the wingtips is more likely with a wing with a pronounced sweep. The Global drug a wingtip during cetification. Although it would be difficult to predict at what combination of pitch and bank angle you would strike a wingtip in the GV/G550, it is hard to imagine a situation where that would occur as tip strikes rarely happen. The last one I remember was commited by the Navy.

I know this doesn't apply to the GV, but it provides a point of reference. About 15 years ago, the Air Force wanted a better crosswind limitation for their G-III's and paid Gulfstrteam to do the work. The OIS for the military jet says that up to 8 degrees of bank and 4 degrees of crab can be used at touchdown.

GV

 

[bigD]

Although it would be difficult to predict at what combination of pitch and bank angle you would strike a wingtip in the GV/G550,

Why is this? Are the dimensions of the fuselage, wings, etc...hard to come by?

 

[semperfido]

About 15 years ago, the Air Force wanted a better crosswind limitation for their G-III's and paid Gulfstrteam to do the work.

GV

seems like a waste of my tax dollars