Gulfstream Academy dangerous to the profession?

[Fly2Scuba]

From: http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/15394392.htm

Before coming to Comair in 2002, Polehinke spent five years flying short-range twin-engine planes for Florida-based Gulfstream International Airlines. As at Comair, Polehinke did not have a history of problems, Gulfstream director of operations Tom Herfort told the Associated Press.

Both pilots who were at the controls of the infamous Pinnacle "accident" were former Gulfstream. Now this; although until we hear the cockpit voice recorder, this seems like more of a true accident instead of severe gross incompetent negligence. A buddy of mine pointed this out that it seems like if you have one pilot with a gulfstream background, then you really are down to one competant minded pilot. Having 3 out of 4 pilots involved in the last 2 fatal aviation accidents in the US with Gulfstream backgrounds does not bode well for that program and is terrible track record. My first question, is what the heck is going on over there at Gulfstream? Followed by, why would anyone decide to fly for Gulfstream? Followed by, is Gulfstream Academy dangerous to the profession? I say yes at this point and it's sad that it's set up brings down all of us.

 

[WSurf]

Not that I went there, but what the hell you talking about Willis? Gulfstream was built to help people get a start fast in the Airline Career! For what, I have no freakin idea! But Gulfstream doesn't have anything to do with these accidents.... Period!!! Gay Topic and Post...

 

[RichardRambone]

I agree with above. Lowly shot at a PFT. Even if they deserve it.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

help people get a start fast in the Airline Career!

Yea braniac, that is actually what I'm talking about and why I ask the questions. Fast start is the key phrase there and my thoughts shared by others is that it's such a fast start that it's missing some elements of the learning process that helps people fly safe and sound. I think just the process of obtaining flight instructor licenses creates a more safety minded mentality versus going to Gulfstream Academy and skipping all those steps. Again 3/4 of the last pilots involved in fatal accidents were Gulfstream. My mathematical training concludes that's not a good number. I'm curious as to what the mentality is like at that questionable airline.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Never mind. Misread the initial news article.

 

[chimichanga]

All I know is that the last guy who came to my company from Gulfstream may well be the worst pilot we've ever had here. Nice guy, but can't fly his way out of a paper bag. His takeoffs and landings are scary.

 

[Nindiri]

I heard that every pilot involved in a US airline accident in the last 25 years was a student pilot at one time. My mathematical training concludes that this is a dangerous number and we need to put a stop to this dangerous trend of hiring former student pilots.

 

[Aerosurfer]

I recently ate at Jack-In-The-Box does that therefore I mean I will die of E-coli

 

[B190Captain]

Yea braniac, that is actually what I'm talking about and why I ask the questions. Fast start is the key phrase there and my thoughts shared by others is that it's such a fast start that it's missing some elements of the learning process that helps people fly safe and sound. I think just the process of obtaining flight instructor licenses creates a more safety minded mentality versus going to Gulfstream Academy and skipping all those steps. Again 3/4 of the last pilots involved in fatal accidents were Gulfstream. My mathematical training concludes that's not a good number. I'm curious as to what the mentality is like at that questionable airline.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to come to the conclusion that your thread is pointless and has no bearing on any accident. The only conclusion I see here is that you are an idiot and your buddy too.

 

[BoilerUP]

I fail to see how anybody can connect the past employment of the Comair FO that is fighting for his life in a Lexington hospital who had been on the RJ for FOUR YEARS with any accident(s). It does not compute.

This thread is worse than the "I live in Lexington and am an airline captain" email that is floating around...

 

[jws717]

He does have a point, all the fatal CRJ accidents in the USA have had GS pilots on the controls. I would never trade in CFI experience for anything, i learned more about flying and aircraft control in my years as a CFI than i have as an airline pilot.

 

[BoilerUP]

He does have a point, all the fatal CRJ accidents in the USA have had GS pilots on the controls. I would never trade in CFI experience for anything, i learned more about flying and aircraft control in my years as a CFI than i have as an airline pilot.

That's like saying the vertical stab snaps off in every domestic Airbus A300 accident, or the rudder hard-overs in every domestic B737 accident.

The FLG3701 horse has been beaten to death and we all learned from the gross negligence (that's what that accident was) on a ferry flight that cost two people their lives. Comair 5191 (IMO) was nothing like that.

I'm sure there are bad pilots with GIA backgrounds out there (just like there are bad pilots with 135/CFI/91/121 backgrounds), but the GIA/unsafe pilots causing accidents correlation suggested in this thread does not exist.

 

[JumpCaptain]

Nah, I don't buy it. They've both worked at Comair for 4+ years now. They've had a while to forget about that place.

 

[WSurf]

Yea braniac, that is actually what I'm talking about and why I ask the questions. Fast start is the key phrase there and my thoughts shared by others is that it's such a fast start that it's missing some elements of the learning process that helps people fly safe and sound. I think just the process of obtaining flight instructor licenses creates a more safety minded mentality versus going to Gulfstream Academy and skipping all those steps. Again 3/4 of the last pilots involved in fatal accidents were Gulfstream. My mathematical training concludes that's not a good number. I'm curious as to what the mentality is like at that questionable airline.

What the hell's your point? We at PDT are hiring folks with 500hrs now! Some are poor, and some 500hr guys are dam good! Gulfstream Academy allowed student to get fast 121 time and move on to another regional.... so the hell what!!!

 

[Fly2Scuba]

I heard that every pilot involved in a US airline accident in the last 25 years was a student pilot at one time. My mathematical training concludes that this is a dangerous number and we need to put a stop to this dangerous trend of hiring former student pilots.

Dumb counter-argument . If you look back at the Pinnacle accident, there was extreme reckless behaivor involved so that is one critical aspect of my argument. Second of all, we're talking about recent history, not the Pan Am era. Gulfstream is not that big of an operation (500 current pilots); so yea, 3 out of 4 is not good odds.

 

[FDJ2]

All I know is that the last guy who came to my company from Gulfstream may well be the worst pilot we've ever had here. Nice guy, but can't fly his way out of a paper bag. His takeoffs and landings are scary.

Did he make it through your training program and IOE? If he did, then don't blame GIA, your carrier hired him, trained him and one of your Check Airman signed him off and released him to fly the line carrying passengers on your aircraft. It looks like your airline might have a problem in its training department.

 

[WSurf]

He does have a point, all the fatal CRJ accidents in the USA have had GS pilots on the controls. I would never trade in CFI experience for anything, i learned more about flying and aircraft control in my years as a CFI than i have as an airline pilot.

And how many frieght dogs are in this industry that never taught and learn much about aircraft contol? Don't get me wrong, instructing is a very valuable tool. Especially today when you are paired up with 400-500 pilots!
But still, this tread is pointless...

 

[The_Russian]

I'm sure there are bad pilots with GIA backgrounds out there (just like there are bad pilots with 135/CFI/91/121 backgrounds), but the GIA/unsafe pilots causing accidents correlation suggested in this thread does not exist.

Well said.

What the hell's your point? We at PDT are hiring folks with 500hrs now! Some are poor, and some 500hr guys are dam good!

Well said.

I know plenty of CFIs with 2000 hours dual that can't fly themselves out of a paper bag. And they are usually the ones making fun of the GIA boys. Go figure!

 

[The_Russian]

Yea braniac, that is actually what I'm talking about and why I ask the questions. Fast start is the key phrase there and my thoughts shared by others is that it's such a fast start that it's missing some elements of the learning process that helps people fly safe and sound. I think just the process of obtaining flight instructor licenses creates a more safety minded mentality versus going to Gulfstream Academy and skipping all those steps. Again 3/4 of the last pilots involved in fatal accidents were Gulfstream. My mathematical training concludes that's not a good number. I'm curious as to what the mentality is like at that questionable airline.

Dumb counter-argument . If you look back at the Pinnacle accident, there was extreme reckless behaivor involved so that is one critical aspect of my argument. Second of all, we're talking about recent history, not the Pan Am era. Gulfstream is not that big of an operation (500 current pilots); so yea, 3 out of 4 is not good odds.

References? Background? You have nothing to stand on with your argument. And we have about 250 pilots. Looks like you were wrong about that one. Along with the rest of your posts.

 

[The_Russian]

Did he make it through your training program and IOE? If he did, then don't blame GIA, your carrier hired him, trained him and one of your Check Airman signed him off and released him to fly the line carrying passengers on your aircraft. It looks like your airline might have a problem in its training department.

Very good post!

 

[Fly2Scuba]

What the hell's your point? We at PDT are hiring folks with 500hrs now! Some are poor, and some 500hr guys are dam good! Gulfstream Academy allowed student to get fast 121 time and move on to another regional.... so the hell what!!!

I'm not talking about just 500 hr guys; I'm talking about a certain operation where pilots start their training from scratch and now has a terrible recent accident record attributed to its name. By some of yours' logic, we shouldn't worry about teaching young children right from wrong because we can just successfully teach that when their older. Those lessons instilled early in ones' aviation career are probably important to a pilot's overall mentality even if they transition to another airline. I think Gulfstream is not doing a good job at creating safe pilots.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

References? Background? You have nothing to stand on with your argument. And we have about 250 pilots. Looks like you were wrong about that one. Along with the rest of your posts.

Yea, I fly at Expressjet and have a 4 year aviation degree and 800 flight instructor hours. I don't understand what your getting at with References. It's already been documented that the pilots involved in the accidents were former Gulfstream. My info about the number of pilots at Gulfstream came from AirlinePilotCentral.com. By cutting down the number to 250, you just made the 3/4 number look even more amazing and furthered my argument. Your above post makes me wonder even more about the incompetance level at Gulfstream.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Hey Russian, I guess you are probably used to defending incompetant operations; we already know the safety record of the Russian aviation industry.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1581018.stm

Although the exact cause is still unknown, the crash of a Tupolev jet in Germany is another sad chapter in Russia's post-Soviet air history. The former Soviet air fleet has been plagued by chronic safety problems since the 1991 collapse of the union and the break-up of the former state airline Aeroflot into some 400 companies.
Accidents involving former Soviet aircraft have generally been attributed to cash shortages, which lower already poor maintenance standards and place extra pressure on air crews.
Safety concerns
Ageing aircraft
Poor maintenance
Obsolete air traffic control system

Concern is frequently expressed about safety standards in many of the small airlines, many of them using some of the older planes shed by the giant Aeroflot.
The ageing Tupolev 154 remains popular with the airlines of the former Soviet Union, despite the emergence of safety fears following numerous crashes.
More than 1,000 Tu-154s have been built and most remain active.
Apart from ageing aircraft and insufficient maintenance, serious concern has been expressed over the air traffic control system in the region. Much of its equipment is obsolete and was now incompatible with the international air navigation system
However, in recent years, the safety record of former Soviet airlines has improved, and the last serious crash involving an airliner from the former Soviet Union was in 1997.
Some of the more serious passenger plane crashes of recent years include:

• 
  [*]15 December 1997: A Tu-154 from the former Soviet republic of Tajikistan crashes in the United Arab Emirates, killing 85 passengers and crew.
  [*]18 March 1997: 50 passengers and crew die when the tail of their An-24 charter plane breaks off in mid-air while en route to Turkey.
  [*]29 August 1996: A Tu-154 passenger plane carrying Russian and Ukrainian miners and their families to work on Norway's Arctic island of Spitzbergen crashes into a mountain top, killing all 143 people on board.
  [*]7 December 1995: A Tu-154 with 97 people aboard disappears en route to the far eastern city of Khabarovsk.
  [*]26 September 1994: A Yak-40 airliner crashes while trying to reach an airport in Siberia to make an emergency landing in bad weather. All 26 people on board die.
  [*]23 March 1994: An Airbus A-310 belonging to Aeroflot crashes near Novokuznetsk, killing 70 people.
  [*]3 January 1994: All 124 people on board a Tu-154 plane are killed when it crashes in Siberia, as well as a farmer on the ground.

As Jim Cramer would say....Booya.

 

[ApocketA's_145]

From: http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/15394392.htm

Before coming to Comair in 2002, Polehinke spent five years flying short-range twin-engine planes for Florida-based Gulfstream International Airlines. As at Comair, Polehinke did not have a history of problems, Gulfstream director of operations Tom Herfort told the Associated Press.

Both pilots who were at the controls of the infamous Pinnacle "accident" were former Gulfstream. Now this; although until we hear the cockpit voice recorder, this seems like more of a true accident instead of severe gross incompetent negligence. A buddy of mine pointed this out that it seems like if you have one pilot with a gulfstream background, then you really are down to one competant minded pilot. Having 3 out of 4 pilots involved in the last 2 fatal aviation accidents in the US with Gulfstream backgrounds does not bode well for that program and is terrible track record. My first question, is what the heck is going on over there at Gulfstream? Followed by, why would anyone decide to fly for Gulfstream? Followed by, is Gulfstream Academy dangerous to the profession? I say yes at this point and it's sad that it's set up brings down all of us.

hey moron! it has nothing to do with gulfstream! NO matter where you go or what you do your always gonna have your handful of people that do stupid things. The pinnacle crash were 2 guys having fun, switching seats at cruise, its the type of person, not the flight school they went to or whatever. I happen to know some people who went to gulfstream, they are well off individuals and of course you have some people going there that dont belong in the industry. Its the person not the airline or school! go back into your hole!

 

[The_Russian]

I'm not talking about just 500 hr guys; I'm talking about a certain operation where pilots start their training from scratch and now has a terrible recent accident record attributed to its name. By some of yours' logic, we shouldn't worry about teaching young children right from wrong because we can just successfully teach that when their older. Those lessons instilled early in ones' aviation career are probably important to a pilot's overall mentality even if they transition to another airline. I think Gulfstream is not doing a good job at creating safe pilots.

Yea, I fly at Expressjet and have a 4 year aviation degree and 800 flight instructor hours. I don't understand what your getting at with References. It's already been documented that the pilots involved in the accidents were former Gulfstream. My info about the number of pilots at Gulfstream came from AirlinePilotCentral.com. By cutting down the number to 250, you just made the 3/4 number look even more amazing and furthered my argument.

First off, your word usage and spelling sucks. And so does your grammar. Way to use that four-year!

Gulfstream does not "create" pilots. They cannot guarantee a certain level of situational awareness from pilots who have worked there.

Flight hours with respect to pilots means absolutely nothing.

Your above post makes me wonder even more about the incompetance level at Gulfstream.

Don't you ever judge my level of competence. Sit your a$$ back down, son.

 

[The_Russian]

As Jim Cramer would say....Booya.

Are you kidding me?

 

[Fly2Scuba]

hey moron! it has nothing to do with gulfstream! NO matter where you go or what you do your always gonna have your handful of people that do stupid things. The pinnacle crash were 2 guys having fun, switching seats at cruise, its the type of person, not the flight school they went to or whatever. I happen to know some people who went to gulfstream, they are well off individuals and of course you have some people going there that dont belong in the industry. Its the person not the airline or school! go back into your hole!

Obviously just about every former Gulfstream pilot is going come on here to try and defend the operation. That's understandable and expected. Maybe with that 1900 in your background, you in fact were one yourself. It's hard to be constructive on this website, but I sincerely hope that people will reconsider the Gulfstream route and/or the academy changes it's training and mentality. My understanding is that Pinnacle severly cut back it's hiring of Gulfstream pilots after the FL410 accident so I'm not the only one questioning the integrity of that operation. And yea, I realize that not every pilot is incompetant that goes to Gulfstream. But just like most Arabs aren't terrorists, it won't stop me from supporting profiling.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

First off, your word usage and spelling sucks. And so does your grammar. Way to use that four-year!

Gulfstream does not "create" pilots. They cannot guarantee a certain level of situational awareness from pilots who have worked there.

Flight hours with respect to pilots means absolutely nothing.


Don't you ever judge my level of competence. Sit your a$$ back down, son.

yea, your judging my word usage, and then telling me not the question/judge your operations competance level. Yea, the booya comment was a stupid and immature comment and I take it back and apologize. That was not polite and attributed to internet idiocy. However with a level head, I can honestly say that yes I do still question the competance of the training program at Gulfstream and the rest of what I posts are to that avail. I'm glad I didn't go that route and feel sorry for those that really had idea what they were doing when went to Gulfstream. Again, I reitterate that something doesn't quite seem right when a small operation is attributed to two terrible accidents. I hope things change for the better over as all us in aviation community feel the effects.

 

[The_Russian]

Obviously just about every former Gulfstream pilot is going come on here to try and defend the operation.

Defend it from what? The operation has nothing to do with pilot quality.

It's hard to be constructive on this website, but I sincerely hope that people will reconsider the Gulfstream route and/or the academy changes it's training and mentality.

You are not being constructive, whatsoever. What does our training have to do with a pilots personal level of situational awareness? We train to the same FAA dictated standards of all other airlines operating within the United States.

And yea, I realize that not every pilot is incompetant that goes to Gulfstream.

Have you done an incompetence check on your airline? Maybe you should! You are good at this!

 

[B190Captain]

He does have a point, all the fatal CRJ accidents in the USA have had GS pilots on the controls. I would never trade in CFI experience for anything, i learned more about flying and aircraft control in my years as a CFI than i have as an airline pilot.

He does not have a point and neither do you. I have personally flown with Gold Seal CFI's, II's and MEI's and could not fly worth a sh!t in a 121 environment. I even flew with one that could not even read a f*cking approach plate. I personally flew with JP who is fighting for his life right now and he is a great individual and a competent pilot. In fact there are a few tools where I am now that were CFI's and did not come from GIA. So once again a pointless thread started by a tool that probably washed out of GIA.