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Great Lakes Training
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Wiskey Driver
Return of the Hub Raider
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2002
- Posts
- 1,308
canadflyau
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 2, 2002
- Posts
- 437
Rumors, rumors, rumors
"Train by intimadation and humilation, pay sucks, a day off is considered anything over 12hrs and the list goes on and on."
No, the regs maintain as does GLA that 24hrs off=1day off
I never felt intimidated. The people who don't have the instrument skills do not pass the flight training. They will teach you the airplane, but not how to shoot an approach, enter a hold, etc. I thought it was fair.
They pay for your hotel during training (double occupancy) and you get paid guarantee and perdiem starting when you pass your checkride. If that is dissapointing then cross ACA off your list the do not pay for hotel, but give you $200 per week until you complete training. It is more the exception than the rule to get paid and a free room durining initial training.
"What about a training contract?"
Yes, that is one of the bigger Union issues right now. They told us the legality of it at all is questionable, but it was for 12 or 15 months.. I can't remember.
"DO THEY CHARGE YOU?"
No
Upgrade to captain is under a year, so good pay increase when you upgrade. The union is also working on getting pay increases as well as better work rules. This is the second contract for the union. The 30 day cooling off period is just around the corner.
Good Luck and Fair Skies
"Train by intimadation and humilation, pay sucks, a day off is considered anything over 12hrs and the list goes on and on."
No, the regs maintain as does GLA that 24hrs off=1day off
I never felt intimidated. The people who don't have the instrument skills do not pass the flight training. They will teach you the airplane, but not how to shoot an approach, enter a hold, etc. I thought it was fair.
They pay for your hotel during training (double occupancy) and you get paid guarantee and perdiem starting when you pass your checkride. If that is dissapointing then cross ACA off your list the do not pay for hotel, but give you $200 per week until you complete training. It is more the exception than the rule to get paid and a free room durining initial training.
"What about a training contract?"
Yes, that is one of the bigger Union issues right now. They told us the legality of it at all is questionable, but it was for 12 or 15 months.. I can't remember.
"DO THEY CHARGE YOU?"
No
Upgrade to captain is under a year, so good pay increase when you upgrade. The union is also working on getting pay increases as well as better work rules. This is the second contract for the union. The 30 day cooling off period is just around the corner.
Good Luck and Fair Skies
Hi there,
I just recently spent the $28 and did thier online application and resume. That was one of the most thorough process' I have ever gone through. They even did a small psych test on us. How long after this do they normally call for an interview? I can't seem to get anyone on the line, so I'm getting a little frustrated and discouraged. I hope I didn't waste my money.
Av8ter
I just recently spent the $28 and did thier online application and resume. That was one of the most thorough process' I have ever gone through. They even did a small psych test on us. How long after this do they normally call for an interview? I can't seem to get anyone on the line, so I'm getting a little frustrated and discouraged. I hope I didn't waste my money.
Av8ter
My training at Lakes was fair. There were no threats upon myself (although my training partner was a total boob and couldn't even enter a hold correctly. He was threatened with being fired if he didn't reverse his rectal cranial inversion). My training at Lakes was no less professional than it was at Air Willy. The Lakes training was a LOT harder however due to my lack of experience in that type of equipment. If it's your first turbine airplane, expect it to be a steep learning curve...and know how to fly instruments! Good luck and enjoy!
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canadflyau
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 2, 2002
- Posts
- 437
Yes, there were definitely people with the bare mins in class.
MY GUESS- is because they will not have the opportunity to jump ship b/c once the have 1000 hrs they will be immediately ready for upgrade.. Some airlines prefer low time pilots so they can standardize to death, or so they don't have to hear "at my last airline we did it this way", or b/c low timers aren't tainted by the poor morale of the industry yet.. JUST MY GUESS
MY GUESS- is because they will not have the opportunity to jump ship b/c once the have 1000 hrs they will be immediately ready for upgrade.. Some airlines prefer low time pilots so they can standardize to death, or so they don't have to hear "at my last airline we did it this way", or b/c low timers aren't tainted by the poor morale of the industry yet.. JUST MY GUESS
rightrudder
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2002
- Posts
- 505
It's because they can abuse the low timers because they have nowhere else that will hire them. Treat them like sh**, pay them sh**, etc. As soon as they get enough time to be hired somewhere else, they jump ship.
I make more $$ as a second year fo at my company than the most senior ca at lakes.
I guess it is a good place to start if you don't have any other alternative.
I make more $$ as a second year fo at my company than the most senior ca at lakes.
I guess it is a good place to start if you don't have any other alternative.
canadflyau
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 2, 2002
- Posts
- 437
Right Rudder- You are entitled to your opinion, and am glad you are very happy at your current airline.
I was recalled by my previous employer whom also pays as well if not better than Air Wiskey (whom I assume you fly for.) Heck it was hard to turn down my first yr fo pay of $24/hr, but that is not the only thing to consider. We all have our own reason to be where we are, when we are. For me, I want the relatively quick upgrade and be building PIC time if I am at a carrier for a while. Other pilots I was furloughed with feel it is more important to get on with a regional that they wouldn't mind being an FO for 5 yrs and could retire from if need be, that is fine too. Being bounced around after a couple of furloughs really has changed my outlook. Also right now this is an employers market. Do not bash pilots if they get the opportunity, and yes it is an opportunity to get hired and start flying for a 121 carrier. None the less, these are tough choices for everyone to make right now!
I am just tired of the more frequent pissing contests on this board rather than good advice or news that used to be on here. Don't rain on someones parade if this is the decision a fellow pilot made with his or her family. To each his own! I hope we all end up where we Pray to God that we want to be, especially for our families. We are all professional pilots, and in times like these choices are far and few between.. not the climate I was learning about in college in the late 90's..
I was recalled by my previous employer whom also pays as well if not better than Air Wiskey (whom I assume you fly for.) Heck it was hard to turn down my first yr fo pay of $24/hr, but that is not the only thing to consider. We all have our own reason to be where we are, when we are. For me, I want the relatively quick upgrade and be building PIC time if I am at a carrier for a while. Other pilots I was furloughed with feel it is more important to get on with a regional that they wouldn't mind being an FO for 5 yrs and could retire from if need be, that is fine too. Being bounced around after a couple of furloughs really has changed my outlook. Also right now this is an employers market. Do not bash pilots if they get the opportunity, and yes it is an opportunity to get hired and start flying for a 121 carrier. None the less, these are tough choices for everyone to make right now!
I am just tired of the more frequent pissing contests on this board rather than good advice or news that used to be on here. Don't rain on someones parade if this is the decision a fellow pilot made with his or her family. To each his own! I hope we all end up where we Pray to God that we want to be, especially for our families. We are all professional pilots, and in times like these choices are far and few between.. not the climate I was learning about in college in the late 90's..
rightrudder
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2002
- Posts
- 505
Canadfly,
Hey, i'm glad that you are enjoying flying at Lakes That's great!
I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade, just adding some more input. People are entitled to information to help them make a decision. I am in fact giving good advice. Don't you think that is appropriate for people to learn the facts before making a decision?
Lakes is a great place to go to build time and get a quick upgrade if that is what you want. It is true that Lakes does not treat its employees very well, pay its suppliers, pays it's pilots very poorly. It is also true that you can upgrade very quickly. If you are amongst the lucky 40% who pass the type ride and don't get fired.
It is also true that the reason you can upgrade so quickly, is because tons of people are bailing for other companies that will treat them better. Heck, Lakes is the largest supplier of pilots for Air Wisconsin. There are many 3 and 4 year lakers who are leaving for Air Wiskey and Skywest, even though they will go back to geing an FO. Why? Because they can't take it anymore.
I know lots of folks who work at Lakes. I don't have a bad thing at all to say about it's pilots, you all can fly with the best of them.
I'm not bashing your pilots at all, just pointing out a few of the less than rosy aspects of lakes
Hey, i'm glad that you are enjoying flying at Lakes That's great!
I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade, just adding some more input. People are entitled to information to help them make a decision. I am in fact giving good advice. Don't you think that is appropriate for people to learn the facts before making a decision?
Lakes is a great place to go to build time and get a quick upgrade if that is what you want. It is true that Lakes does not treat its employees very well, pay its suppliers, pays it's pilots very poorly. It is also true that you can upgrade very quickly. If you are amongst the lucky 40% who pass the type ride and don't get fired.
It is also true that the reason you can upgrade so quickly, is because tons of people are bailing for other companies that will treat them better. Heck, Lakes is the largest supplier of pilots for Air Wisconsin. There are many 3 and 4 year lakers who are leaving for Air Wiskey and Skywest, even though they will go back to geing an FO. Why? Because they can't take it anymore.
I know lots of folks who work at Lakes. I don't have a bad thing at all to say about it's pilots, you all can fly with the best of them.
I'm not bashing your pilots at all, just pointing out a few of the less than rosy aspects of lakes
Cardinal
Of The Kremlin
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 2,308
Just survived the latest Lakes newhire class. Just some statistics for the record. Lowest time guy was around 500 and 17 multi, the high-timer was around 2500. Most had at or near 1000 with between 50 and 100 multi. Every class member was a current or former CFI. We started with 21 pilots, 2 simply left groundschool, 2 more washed out in the sim, but not everybody is done yet, so that could change. Coming from a quiet Part 61 environment the sheer quality of my classmates surprised me. To the last, all were impressively sharp, intelligent, smart. Through groundschool all studied as though possesed, averaging 5-6 hours per night.
Regarding future classes, there may be a class drawn from the pool, maybe January (perhaps pushed forward to February or farther) but that decision is dependent on attrition. Upgrade is more or less when you have the age, the time, and the inclination.
Everybody who has said "know how to fly instruments" really isn't kidding. All that instrument minutae becomes relevant in a hurry. The ASA ATP Oral Exam Guide was a good place to start for that stuff. Everybody also says that the Sim will kick your arse, and it will - but if you keep your head on straight and don't let it get to you, you'll survive. Essentially you just shoot approaches all day while things are perpetually going wrong. You know the engine is going to fail at V1, you know you'll have to shoot the NDB, you know you'll have to fly the full procedure, so just expect it and plan for it instead of dreading it. Know hold entries well enough so that you can figure one out in the dark, holding a flashlight, with your instructor barking at you, using nothing but an RMI, in less than 6 seconds. It's not academic, because a quarter of your simulator time will be in a hold running checklists. Speaking of which, figure out how to enter holds, intercept, track bearings, and shoot approaches using nothing but an RMI before you get there, Flight Sim '02 works fine. The King Air 350 in FS2002 does help in getting accustomed to the sky-pointer style ADI - it's kinda weird for steep turns, but some people didn't notice the difference. The process was undoubtedly the most difficult thing I've ever done in my short life. Many hours of angst, but many moments of hilarity. A rewarding, entertaining experience.
Regarding future classes, there may be a class drawn from the pool, maybe January (perhaps pushed forward to February or farther) but that decision is dependent on attrition. Upgrade is more or less when you have the age, the time, and the inclination.
Everybody who has said "know how to fly instruments" really isn't kidding. All that instrument minutae becomes relevant in a hurry. The ASA ATP Oral Exam Guide was a good place to start for that stuff. Everybody also says that the Sim will kick your arse, and it will - but if you keep your head on straight and don't let it get to you, you'll survive. Essentially you just shoot approaches all day while things are perpetually going wrong. You know the engine is going to fail at V1, you know you'll have to shoot the NDB, you know you'll have to fly the full procedure, so just expect it and plan for it instead of dreading it. Know hold entries well enough so that you can figure one out in the dark, holding a flashlight, with your instructor barking at you, using nothing but an RMI, in less than 6 seconds. It's not academic, because a quarter of your simulator time will be in a hold running checklists. Speaking of which, figure out how to enter holds, intercept, track bearings, and shoot approaches using nothing but an RMI before you get there, Flight Sim '02 works fine. The King Air 350 in FS2002 does help in getting accustomed to the sky-pointer style ADI - it's kinda weird for steep turns, but some people didn't notice the difference. The process was undoubtedly the most difficult thing I've ever done in my short life. Many hours of angst, but many moments of hilarity. A rewarding, entertaining experience.
My 2 cents worth. If you are goint to GLA for a great lifestyle leave while you can. If you are going for a place to improve your career and yourself as a pilot then that is the place. As far as intimidation, yes you will be intimidated if you can't fly. As far as treating you like crap? You mean they make you fly? Isn't that what you signed up to do?
In less than 3 years I was able to come away with the B1900 and EMB-120 type. Not to mention over 2500 hours of turbine with 1900 being PIC. There are very few 121 airlines that can give you that.
If you are based in DEN you will fly into some of the coolest airports in the US. Also dealing with performance issues that most pilots never think about.
In closing I will say that if you pass through GLA training as a new hire you can make it through any groundschool. Lakers are known and respected in the aviation community. But do not let up on studying............upgrade will be there before you know it.
In less than 3 years I was able to come away with the B1900 and EMB-120 type. Not to mention over 2500 hours of turbine with 1900 being PIC. There are very few 121 airlines that can give you that.
If you are based in DEN you will fly into some of the coolest airports in the US. Also dealing with performance issues that most pilots never think about.
In closing I will say that if you pass through GLA training as a new hire you can make it through any groundschool. Lakers are known and respected in the aviation community. But do not let up on studying............upgrade will be there before you know it.
I went through Lakes training in the 1900 about 3.5 years ago, and I will say it was extremely rough. The failure rate for new hire classes back then was about 50%. Out of our class of 30, only 15 made it online, which was typical.
I spent 6 months online, flew 500 hours, and then quit for SkyWest. If it's your only choice, take it, but don't expect to have alot of fun.
I spent 6 months online, flew 500 hours, and then quit for SkyWest. If it's your only choice, take it, but don't expect to have alot of fun.
Cardinal
Of The Kremlin
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 2,308
Cardinal said:
Dieterly said:
Well, in the case of a dual gen failure it gets dark and shortly thereafter the EFIS Auxillary Power dies. In the midst of which my sim partner and I were screwing up by the numbers, thus the stern talking to. At this juncture I personally didn't want to be sketching out radials and courses on a notepad wracking my brain trying to figure out which way to turn after station passage. Thus my comment. Surely the whole point of a simulator is to expose one to situations (including stress levels) not normally anticipated in line flying.
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Cornelius
Where's Pancakes House
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 475
as one of the previous posts mentioned, kiss your quality of life good by soon as you start ground school. It gets better when your seniority number keeps on going up, which it does fast at lakes. But then you upgrade, and then your quality of life will go to sh@t again. Somebody previously said you get fired after failing upgrade, thats incorrect. After your 3rd attempt to upgrade, then you are liable to get canned.
Peace!
Peace!
DrunkIrishman
Cocaine is a helluva drug
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2002
- Posts
- 519
I was hired in '99 and trained by intimidation. I lived with my in-laws for 19 months because I was an FO for 18 months and didn't make enough money. I left this year and went to another regional where I started over in the right seat. I have more experience in the right seat than some of the left seaters I fly with. I have no regrets flying for GLA as should no one else. Keep flying and looking out for the betterment of your career.
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