Getting to a Regional

[Bruin-Flyer]

All

I have been chewing on which road to take for quite some time now, and would like to share it with you all in hopes of coming to a firm decision. Obviously, my primary goal is to get hired at a regional and then eventually with a major one day. Before I lay out my two options however, let me provide you with a brief background on myself.

I currently am 26 and an AF Officer (non-flying) with approximately 2.5 years left on my active duty service commitment. Along with my B.A. that I received in '01, I will be completing my MBA/Aviation from Riddle by this summer. As far as my flying experience, I have a PPL and roughly 250 hours.

Although I am active duty, I do have a job that allows a fair amount of free time for flying on the side. However, I am pretty adament about not taking out a loan for flight training.

So here are my options that I have come up with:

1) Attend a FBO in the area (there are several close by) and obtain my ratings right away and just pay as I go along (could probably complete Instrument through MEI in about 6 months). Then begin instructing right away on weekends/evenings to begin building time while I have a fairly descent income with the military. This would also allow me to buy some multi-time if multi students were lean. I would estimate also that this route would cost roughly $20,000 since I already have my PPL.

or

2) Wait it out the 2.5 years, save money, and then get trained through Airline Transport Professionals (ATP) and their 90 day program. Then hopefully, get an instructor position with them. Although the cost of this program would be around $35,000, I see the multi time as very valuable, and well worth it.

My difficulty in making this decision is that they are both viable options. If anyone could shed any light on my predicament and what you think I should do, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Riddle momma]

Those are two good options. Probably the best would be the second one. You know as well as anyone that multi time is gold. At the FBOs in the area you wouldn't be sure of the multi student market, which leaves you in a bind should it be non-existent. I would say wait till you got the money, breeze through the ratings, and get hired there. Often times, they have leads into the regionals that a normal FBO doesn't.

The FBO route would be good, cause you would build a lot of time in those 2.5 years you have left, but again, the multi is not a certainty.

Maybe you can knock out the instrument in the evenings you have off, and it would save you a little more. It would also keep you flying and making contacts, who knows who you might meet out there.

Good luck!!!

 

[bobbysamd]

Training choices

Wait it out the 2.5 years, save money, and then get trained through Airline Transport Professionals (ATP) and their 90 day program. Then hopefully, get an instructor position with them. Although the cost of this program would be around $35,000, I see the multi time as very valuable, and well worth it.

That's an awful lot of flying, learning and training to absorb in ninety days. My concern with a program such as ATP is the amount of learning you will retain after completing the program. Sometimes, unless you can apply what you have learned immediately after learning it, you will lose it almost as fast as you gained it. It takes time for new learning to settle into the brain. Sometimes, these programs amount to only a cram course - and you know how long learning stays with you after you cram for an exam. That would be my only proviso for selecting ATP. Riddle Momma is right on about the value of multi time.

Apart from the multi time, the benefit would be the discipline of a school environment. You don't always find that in Part 61 FBO training. When you are forced to put your nose to the grindstone, you learn more, better and faster.

Why don't you check out some other 141 schools where the training is a little less intense? You might have some G.I. Bill benies that would be a good match for a 141 school after you separate. As I understand the rules, you cannot apply G.I. ed benefits to Part 61 training. With your B.A. and Riddle M.B.A., you certainly have your ticket punched for that requirement.

Hope these thoughts help some more. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[tarheel87]

My 2 cents...

You can't lose with the ATP program (I'm may be just a little biased)!!! BUT... If I had to wait 2+ plus years you might want to log some time as a CFI then go to ATP to get your comm multi and your mei in 2 years. Multi time is king but total time is the killer in the real world. You can always get multi time down the road as a frieght dog or mei.

good luck!!!

 

[BoDEAN]

Train now
don't wait, airlines are hiring again, slowly, but picking up!

 

[Bruin-Flyer]

Thanks for the responses......and here are a few more questions/comments regarding this issue.

Does multi time get almost irrelevant after accumulating so much? In that I mean, does it make a huge difference if somone has 300 multi compared with 900 multi? I know ATP lends the opportunity (if you instruct there) for tons of multi time....but then again, that is only one of a few schools who use primarily multi engine aircraft. Obviously, if you took a look at everyone who gets hired at a regional (of course depending hiring trends at the time), the average would seem to be between 200-300 hours of multi, with the bulk of time single engine. Therefore, is going to ATP in hopes of landing an instructor position with them really that more beneficial assuming I could get roughly 300 hours multi via a regular FBO?

Does it look bad to simply pay for multi time once I have my multi rating and the finances to do so? Please don't confuse this with PFT.....I simply mean rent a multi aircraft. Or does it look a lot better to have multi instructor time?

One final question.....for those of you who are current/former CFIs....approx. how many total hours do you think is practical to build per year simply instructing on weekends and some evenings?

Thanks again

 

[340drvr]

I have to side with the "train now" bunch. No matter which route, you've got a lot of ground to cover, so the sooner you get started, the better off you'll be down the road. Instrument, Commercial, CFI, etc., can all be done while you're still in the service (that's the "don't quit your day-job" voice.) Later on, there will be other options besides ATP's if you need them.
Don't get me wrong, ATP's provides a good program (I got my MEI and ATP there), but 2.5 years is along time to defer a dream, as far as I'm concerned. Good luck!

 

[braidkid]

Those are good questions Bruin-Flyer. I got my CFI this past May and had just under 300 hours. I've been CFIing part time and am now up to 600 hours. I go to my day job and instruct evenings and weekends. It's worked out great for me so far. I average about 40 hours/month part time CFIing. The winter months have been a lot slower due to shorter days and the weather. If you have the students and the time after work to instruct it definately can be done.

As for how much multi time to get and how to get it....that's a VERY good question. I just got my MEI at ATP and have 50 hours MT. I'm hoping I don't have to buy anymore multi time, however, most insurance companies require you to have at least 100 hours MT before you can even instruct. Its a catch 22, I can't instruct until I buy more multi time. So I'm torn, unless I can whore myself out and ride along to build another 50 to get to 100, I may break down sometime this year and buy another 100 from Ari-Ben for $6k down in Florida.

 

[CFI'er]

In 2 years, the airlines will lower their total time and multi time requirements, so don't use today's posted requirements. Get all the hours you can in that 2 years, and you will be that much further ahead. Keep in mind that the airlines will lose about 65% of active pilots in the next 5 years due to mandatory retirement at age 60. A lot of up-grades will take place which will allow newbie pilots to enter the market with lower minimums.

 

[CFI'er]

Check into the insurance requirements for multi-rental. Most FBO's require that you have at least 25 to as high as 50 hours or more multi-engine time before they release the equipment for solo flight. The MEI is more valuable than a CFII for this reason.

 

[puddlejumper]

Does the AF Base have a flying club? If so, I would look into their CPL-Multi training right away and gear up for your MEI. Use tuition assistance for groundschool (not sure if officers are eligible) With good networking skills, you should be able to find some right-seat oppurtunities with 91 PIC potential on deadhead or maintenance flights.

Most 0-2s and above, if you've planned appropriately, should be able to afford a payment and maintenance on an old Apache/Aztec or Seneca, BE55 or Travel Air. Maybe look into starting your own flying club with a couple partners. With the expenses shared between 3 or 4 AF Captains, you may be able to do real well when it comes times to recoup your investment. Prices seem to be way down right now for these older planes.

Thinking back, I wish I had bought my own airplane when I was an E5/E6 in the Navy. I wouldn't have had to re-enlist and I'd probably be a senior regional airline pilot by now. It's all about getting yourself in the right position for hiring at the right time. Like the Flight Safety sim instructor likes to say, "Do everything just right and you'll be fine..."

BTW, what part of the country are you in?

-pj

 

[Bruin-Flyer]

Thanks again everyone for your honest feedback.....I definately feel after your responses that the consesus is to get started right away, and after hearing the reasoning, completely agree. If I can leave active duty with roughly 600-800 TT simply by instructing part time, I think that I will be way ahead of the game. This will also provide me the opportunity to put away money every month to supplement instructor/regional pay when I leave active duty.

PJ.....I am based out of Los Angeles AFB....and there is no Aero Club....not even a runway! The closest one is located at Edwards AFB (about 1.5 hours away).....and not really cost effective when taking into account the drive in LA traffic. I am currently an 0-2 here....and fortunately, due to the large BAH in the LA area, along with having two roomates, I am able to pocket roughly one-half of my BAH each month. Regarding starting an aero club, I looked into it and the prospects look fairly bright. As long as I can prove to the AF that there is interest for GA from people on base, they will work with me to fund aircraft and a rental space at a nearby airport for instruction.....this is definately something I will pursue once I get my CFI. BTW....what corporate outfit are you with?

Lastly, when you really think about it, I think the primary reason to start now, or question to ask I should say, is this: Do you think that people ever thought that after the industry downturn in the early 90s following the first Gulf War, that hiring mins would drop so low just years later in the later 90s? I guess you just never know in this industry.

Again.....thanks for everybody taking the time to answer my posts. Too many times on these forums do I see people seeking honest advice, and are met with criticism, bitterness, and unnecessary sarcasim.

I look forward to reading more of your comments!

 

[taloft]

...and instructing is one of the better part-time jobs out there. You go flying for fun mostly, and make some extra income while gaining valuable experience.

You can always go full-time when the timing is right with your other obligations.

 

[Flex]

Any chance on staying in the AF and getting a flight slot? Seems like that would be better than leaving for a 15k a year job.

 

[Bruin-Flyer]

Flex

Never had an interest in making the military a career....or even a 10 year comittment for that matter.

Also, from what I can tell on these boards, it seems as if military pilots have just as much trouble getting to the majors as a captain for a regional these days. I guess when the market is saturated with more pilots than jobs, even a 5,000 hour military pilot with all turbine time will still be met with some roadblocks if he/she decides to fly for the airlines.

You do have a point though....I think the true benefit of flying military is 1) Opportunity to fly great equipment, and 2) Most don't have to endure the low pay of regional carriers.

On the other hand, the benefits (at least as I see it) of not flying in the military is 1) No long deployments to places that I can't even pronounce, 2) No side duties that comes with being an officer, 3) Not being locked into a comittment if an opportunity arises (i.e., the flood gates of hiring opens up). I said it before.....I don't think many people saw the hiring wave of the late 90s coming just a few years after the biggest slump (of course before 9/11) in airline history.

All in all, I think the biggest factor is simply timing. Nobody knows when a large-scale wave of hiring will take place. If I would have signed the 11 year comittment when I got commissioned, I would not have been able to leave the AF until roughly 2012.....quite a long stepping stone if you ask me. But then again, as I think most would agree, if you are using the military as a stepping stone to the airlines, then 1) You are probably there for the wrong reasons, and 2) You probably won't enjoy your time there.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.....but thanks for the reply and the suggestion anyway.

 

[NTXPilot]

Keep in mind that the airlines will lose about 65% of active pilots in the next 5 years due to mandatory retirement at age 60.

I knew the baby boomers will all start reaching that age soon, and not only the airlines but most professions will need people to fill the gap once all these people start retiring...But as far as the airlines are concerned, is it really that much? Anyone know where to find any stats. on this?


Keepin it real down here in Tx,
LT

 

[Bruin-Flyer]

Keep in mind that the airlines will lose about 65% of active pilots in the next 5 years due to mandatory retirement at age 60.



NTX:

I thought that was a little high when I first read it.....but hey.....maybe it is just wishful thinking!

 

[lymanm]

...

"Keep in mind that the airlines will lose about 65% of active pilots in the next 5 years due to mandatory retirement at age 60."

While thematically true, this is a slight exaggeration. It will be closer to 40-50% over the next 12-15 years or so. The majority of baby boomers were born from 1945-1960; the 1960 babies still have a few years left in them in the workforce. I was looking through the Census reports not long ago on an unrelated matter.

 

[bobbysamd]

Multi time; how much is needed and the most-accepted ways to build it

Does multi time get almost irrelevant after accumulating so much?

Multi time is never, ever irrelevant.

In that I mean, does it make a huge difference if somone has 300 multi compared with 900 multi?

It does make a difference. The pilot recruiters (say they) look at the whole person, but someone with 900 multi will look far stronger at the outset than someone with 300 of multi.

I must throw in this important point. Multi PIC time is the name of the game.

s going to ATP in hopes of landing an instructor position with them really that more beneficial assuming I could get roughly 300 hours multi via a regular FBO?

Does it look bad to simply pay for multi time once I have my multi rating and the finances to do so?

It always looks better to exhibit multi time earned through legitimate employment than through rental. Anyone can buy a block of time. MEI time is just fine and is an accepted, traditional way of building multi PIC time. Once again, it is time earned via employment.

[H]ow many total hours do you think is practical to build per year simply instructing on weekends and some evenings?

Let's say each weekday evening you have one student for a 1.5 hour dual. You schedule four flights each weekend day, at 1.5 hours. Do the math. It works out to about 10-15 hours a week, or about 700 hours a year - if all your flights go, which they will not, guaranteed. It's probably more reasonable to expect 300-500 hours per year under the scheme you propose.

You must expect cancellations and maintenanced flights. You must expect wx to cancel flights. Also, you might spend all of one day with a student on such things as cross-countries. And all this assumes you have enough students to keep you busy.

One poster mentioned that mins will drop over the next couple of years - assuming hiring picks up precipitously. I would not make that assumption. Competition will still be fierce and you need to load for bear - meaning 500 hours of multi minimum to be competitive. But that does not mean that you should delay applying until you reach that figure.

Hope this helps some more. Once again, best of luck with your efforts.

 

[labbats]

Are you eligible for VA benefits? If so, that should be your focus.

Also, if it suits you, and your only true desire is to build hours, ask for a transfer to a base with an Aero Club. I am amazed at the low cost for quality planes and instruction. Add in VA paying for 2/3 of the cost and it's unbeatable. You already have you Private, so all training from here out would be covered.