Getting the Axe @ DCA

[Chief_FE]

Can anyone tell me how washing out from training is handled at any of the airlines?
Reason I'm asking is I just got the axe from Delta Connection Academy 2/3rds of the way through the instructor standz class. All I was told was my performance did not meet required standards. The chief of standardization said he would be at a "disadvantage" if he were to discuss the problems with my checkride. In my previous life (USAF) I always felt you owed someone the courtesy of some feedback when you were showing them the door. Am I wrong?
Any inputs would be appreciated.

 

[jdog78]

you deserve an explanation!

I would have to say that is extremely unprofessional behavior. I'm not surprised, as I've heard some "interesting" things about DCA. First, they have a responsibility as instructors to help you learn. If you performed badly, then they need to tell you what was wrong so you can improve...or so they can improve their teaching methods If they disagree, tell them to review the FOI section under Instructor Responsibilities. Second, you are a customer and they can't just take your money and not explain to you why you're being dismissed from standardization, conveniently after completing your very expensive training. If you were not up to standards, did they not provide adequate training? If you suspect foul play, contact the Better Business Bureau or the State Attorney General.
There seems to be a lot of unscrupulous activity going on in flight training. They promise you the moon and then screw you. I wouldn't be surprised if you're getting screwed as well. But, be prepared in case they actually do have a legitimate reason for dismissing you. Whatever the case, I wish you the best of luck.

john

 

[172driver]

Did you make it to the flight? What is your guess as to what went wrong? It was either the written tests or the flight. Either way, because you never worked there, I see no reason to list it on your resume. The airlines need not know about it. If they ask or you decide to talk about it, like all interview questions, turn it into a positive and it'll be fine.

Example: I was disappointed in myself for not making it through but it was an extremely valuable learning experience for me. I realized how much hard work and dedication it takes to succeed in aviation and have since excelled as a CFI, maintaining a 90 percent pass rate, putting in long hours with the FAR/AIM, blah, blah, blah. You get the point. Interviewers know that everybody has had bad experiences and want to know what you've done to make yourself a valuable asset to them right now.

The 'disadvantage' he was talking about is in case you take legal action. Whatever happened is well documented and secret so that you can't take it to a lawyer. Sucks but I guess we can blame our litigious society for it.

If it was the flight, my condolences. I'd love to hear who popped you and why. Send me a PM. However, if it was the written tests, you might need to look at your study habits a little bit and figure out how to get through a fast paced program like that. The 'standz' class is supposed to be representative of an airline ground school and if you can't make it through one, you gotta fix the problem before you attempt the other.

DCA has always run the class the same way. Below 80 percent on the writtens, you're gone, 90 percent on the limitations and memory items. Pretty much the same deal at an airline.

The flight is pass/fail, one shot at it, not the same as the airline at all, at least the one I work for. Anyone can have a bad day under that kind of stress or draw a bad examiner.

They don't tell you which it was...but I think you probably know. It is a terrible system, in my opinion. How many of us would be where we are today if our checkrides were one shot deals, sometimes administered by not so fair people? How can you learn from your mistakes if they don't tell you what they were? How can you demonstrate your ability to learn if you don't get a second chance? How do they know fair checkrides are being administered? Because I, and everybody else there, know that luck of the draw is most of the battle.

That flight ought to consist of getting the freakin airplane up and down safely, PERIOD. The applicants have already proven their abilities to numerous CFI's, check airmen, the FAA, and an interview panel. Most of the people who do the standz rides realize this. Some don't because they're on a major power trip. The sad part is that the academy gives them the power to ruin peoples' chance at a job, taint their career, steal their dream.

My standz flight was nearly flawless until the last approach. I made a mistake, not dangerous, but enough to tank the flight. The check airman asked me what I would do to fix the problem and passed me. (Thanks Kep!) I have NEVER made the same mistake again. Learning occurred that day. I went on to be a quality CFI for the academy and am now a first officer for the airline, all of which could easily have been snatched away by a snap decision that day. Luckily he wasn't a power tripper like some others.

If it makes you feel any better, I had a couple of incredibly hard-working, talented students go down on their standz flights. I taught them in the CFII course just prior to standz and they were top notch CFI's, excited about the job. Well, they're now top notch talent for somebody else. I will do everything in my power to help them in the future and already wrote them letters of rec for instructor positions. One of them failed his flight with the Asst Chief of Standz, who had a total of about 400 hrs in his logbook at the time, maybe 50 hrs of which was actually teaching students. A really qualified judge of talent... I think not.

My point is, the standz flight is a 1.5 hr look at your abilities by a sometimes unqualified or inexperienced judge, on the most stressful day of your life. Don't feel too bad about it.

Overall, I have always endorsed the place wholeheartedly. Some of you have read my posts on the subject in the past. That standz process and the people running it still give me heartburn though as you can tell from my endless ranting...

PM me if you have any questions or wanna vent.

 

[Flymach2]

Hi...

It seems to be common practice at DCA to not divulge a reason for dismissal.

A person I know completed their training from zero time to CFII in 11 months. No Stage Check or Checkride problems. Very personable and academically sound. It also seemed they were on good terms with the Staff there. They were granted the standard interview for a CFI position. The written test score was 100%. The oral portion was uneventful as well which included some HR questions along with simple procedural scenarios, etc. Much to the surprise of many, a letter arrived a few days later thanking him for applying but "no thanks".
Concerned, this person tried to get an explaination as to why they weren't invited back from the Chief Instructor, Director of Training, President, etc. The common response was, "we can't discuss it any further". The dumbfounded applicant asked," How can you advertise that you will help someone get to an airline and yet in such a critical phase of that process deny that person a reason why he/she was not considered?" Naturally, no intelligent response was given.

Perhaps it was a blessing in disguise for him, as he is now a Regional Captain, without the so-called "help" of DCA.

Anyway, keep working at what you do and don't worry about DCA or their politics. You're probably better off. Good luck.

Regards

 

[CFI'er]

It is the method DCA operates and how they can advertise that all "graduates" receive a guaranteed interview. Look closely at how the guarantee reads. What do they consider is the airline interview? It is the CFI interview, not the actual airline interview by airline employee's. DCA considers the CFI interview as part of the airline interview process. They will give an interview, as promised, and not only If they have a CFI slot available. The guarantee is more than misleading, it is outright fraud. After all, it is wham bang and "sorry, we don't have to give a reason" interview. A lot of "smoke and mirrors" marketing. The PR at DCA is beyound bad, it stinks. Only a lucky few made it through the hoops and were allowed to go to Basic Indoc. The advertising that DCA has should go under the scope. It will take a class action suite by those who lost the dream and got shafted.

Answer this question: DCA has on their web site that they issued more pilot certificates, for three years in a row, than any other flight school. If this is the case, why would regional airlines need any other flight schools to supply them with pilots. Even Comair hires from other sources. Can you answer why? If this school is so great, it would supply all the pilots to DC (Comair). The ads definitely give that impression, don't they?

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

Chief_FE,
Sorry to hear that, for what it's worth. They could handle it better, that's for sure. But, you did not fail a check ride, or a "line check," or anything else for that matter on that flight. So, don't even mention it... you didn't wash out from training - it's not an airline - it's just a flight school you applied to and didn't end up taking the job. I know it feels worse, but it's not. You don't tell prospective employers about the CFI job(s) you didn't get. You might just be better off for it!

CFI'er,

DCA gets 15 to 30ish students per month in SFB. That turns into a lot of ratings over a year, plus they have a part 61 FBO type school and 3 satellite schools. The number of pilots standzed per month 6 - 12, the number of schools they could be sent to, 4 (including SFB). The satellite school instructors take longer to finish the 800 dual needed to get the guaranteed interview with a DCI airline... yep, that's where the interview is guaranteed. But, you have to finish the entire deal - 800 dual given, atleast 50 dual multi, and atleast 100 multi pic? or total? can't remember. DCA only puts out 6 to 10 pilots per month who have finished the program. The airlines need a lot more than that to conduct an interview session. That's why they go beyond DCA; DCA can't produce enough pilots. Even if they could, who's to say they fit at XYZ airline. The airlines (usually) look for someone that's a good fit with them - and that means looking at a broad scope of applicants.

As for the rest, see 172driver's well written post.

 

[ExecJetCA]

I have met nearly a hundred differnt people that have all gone to DCA and none of them ever made it to Comair. Most of them are Captians at other places and some are FO's at the majors. It seems to me it is a scam that they make quite a bit of money off of, too bad people aren't truely informed about how they operate before they sign their life away in debt.

 

[172driver]

Do you work at Comair? If so, you would see that there are hundreds of pilots on the seniority list from the academy. Almost everyone who works hard, stays dedicated, and has an ounce of talent ends up at Comair or another DCI regional. There are exceptions of course but most who don't make it have obvious attitude or motivational issues. A few just get screwed, just like anywhere in the aviation world.

 

[lymanm]

Expectations...

The fact is, DCA provides excellent quality and training standards. If you go in expecting a fast past program that nets you above average flying skills, you'll be satisfied. If you go there expecting the moon, you may be *SEVERELY*. My old roomie put in 18 months there and was shafted on the standz flight. He let it get to him, having not flown an hour since then. If you ignore the PR department and view the airline graduation steps as a bonus, you'll be quite pleased.

In any event, I'd venture to say that those who join the academy expecting airline placement are probably not there for the right reasons...

 

[de727ups]

Look at their ads...

"I'd venture to say that those who join the academy expecting airline placement are probably not there for the right reasons..."

I agree but look at their ads. Airline placement is what they are selling. You can hardly blame folks when they find out it's not so easy.

 

[lymanm]

PR

"I agree but look at their ads. Airline placement is what they are selling. You can hardly blame folks when they find out it's not so easy."

Yeah, I totally agree that their marketing people are brilliant. I'm not sure if Susan Burell is still there or not, but from a management point of view, she has done an amazing job.

It's too bad they have zero concept of HR - ie getting canned from Standz with no explanation.

 

[huncowboy]

Sorry to hear this.

Not getting hired by Comair is one thing but getting kicked out of standz for a CFI slot is drastic especially if you feel you have been doing well.

I myself am more afraid of not become a CFI at DCA than not getting called after the interview. Finding a CFI job with only 220-250TT and zero dual given must be extremely hard... banner towers are looking for more TT right now. At least even if on does not get hired after the interview he/she has some quality dual given time but without that…

About the other issue, just about every place you go to apply for a job will not tell you exactly why you have been rejected or kicked out. They will give you a generic answer at best. This is the legal age we are in. It happened to me once.

Best wishes to you!

edit: just saw now that you have 400+ TT. I assumed you have the average TT a DCA student has after CFII...

 

[Chief_FE]

Most of the folks in my Standz had around 250-300 which is typical if you start out there zero time. I earned my CMEL/Instrument at a Part 141 school and only did my CFI/CFII at DCA (one strike against ). I knocked those out in 13 weeks and only busted one stage check. Thats when I offered a differing opinion to the Standardization department about Precision 180 degree power off landings (strike two). Also, DCAs instructor pool is very deep (strike three).

As far as I'm concerned, by DCA refusing to provide specifics tells me I busted the Standz ride long before the class started. (They had to use the ride because I know I passed the tests). You would think though after dropping a huge amount of money and putting my life on hold for three months, they could at least provide some meaningful feeback.

Can't say as I would want to even bother working for an outfit with that mindset and perhaps something better is forthcoming.

Believe it or not, DCA is not the center of the aviation universe (though they want everyone there to believe that) and you can get hired with zero dual given. I did. And instead of getting a whopping $10 per hour, I'm getting $20 and I'm also not having to wait unilt I have 600 dual given to get my MEI (which is costing me a fraction of what is would have at DCA)

 

[bobbysamd]

I'm not surprised at any of this . . .

I interviewed at Comair for a CFI job twelve years ago. I was not a grad; I was hired from the so-called "outside" for all my jobs. I paid my way to the interview; no space-available or other courtesies were offered me. My interview consisted of about twenty minutes with the Chief Instructor and a brief flight with this older man who was extremely gruff. I recall during the preflight how a 150 was taxiing in with its taxi light on. This man went on a rant, shouting and gesturing to the 150, "TURN IT OFF!!! TURN IT OFF!!!" I was not impressed.

I was not hired, which I figured out by myself after not hearing from them. I was not even afforded the courtesy of a phone call or rejection letter.

(I understand that the Chief Instructor at the time of my interview is now the Chief Pilot at FlightSafety (!).)

I also had an interview for the airline. I was a street applicant. I was not hired. This time I received a rejection letter, so I placed a call to the Chief Pilot in Orlando who had interviewed me. I said to him very carefully that all I wanted to know was what I could have done differently so I could do better at my next interview. He said it was "company policy" not to give applicants a reason for their rejection. It seemed pretty arbitrary. So, what I read above about the school washing out someone from stan and not providing a reason does not surprise me in the least.

I would not worry about it, as long as you're not taking a PRIA hit. But you still have to fashion an appropriate, honest interview answer in case you are ever asked if you had failed a training program.

Good luck with your future plans. You deserve it after your experience.