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Getting a Type Rating

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MarineGrunt

Will kill for peace.
Joined
Sep 18, 2002
Posts
1,854
I know I might be walking the thin line of PFT here for a bit, but bare with me for a sec...

I was wondering if it wouldn't a be bad idea to get a type rating in order to make myself more marketable to the corporate world. The way I see it, it's the same reason why I'm getting my MEI - makes it easier to get a better job. Every corporate job posting I see, you always need "x" amount of hours in a jet or a certain type rating. Anyone think that this is a worthy investment? If so, what type rating would you recommend?
 
Type rating

A type rating may be helpful is if you already have time in type. The type alone without time probably will not be helpful.

I got my Citation type for many of the same reasons that you're considering. I thought that having a type would show the regionals that I was trainable, can be typed, knew Part 25 aircraft, learned crew procedures, etc. I also knew that American was using a Citation sim to evaluate Eagle applicants, so I thought that some familiarity with the layout, and real time in the airplane, would be helpful if I were interviewed.

As it turned out, I got an Eagle interview, but the sim was much different than the airplane; in fact, the airplane was more state-of-the-art than the sim! Not to mention that the sim was extremely touchy to "fly" as compared to the airplane, which was great. I don't think my type helped me particularly with the sim ride, and I didn't get the job.

I don't think that having the type helped me at all with getting regional interviews. It might have impressed some chief instructors and helped me get a couple of senior CFI jobs I wanted. I also enjoyed the experience tremendously and was able to write it off on my taxes, so it was not altogether a waste.

Spending your own money for a type rating would border on P-F-T if you're applying for a job that requires the type and where the "employer" demands that you pay for it. Just getting it on your own with no specific job ad and/or demand in mind is not P-F-T.

Hope that helps. Good luck with whatever you do.
 
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Re: Type rating

bobbysamd said:
Spending your own money for a type rating would border on P-F-T if you're applying for a job that requires the type and where the "employer" demands that you pay for it. Just getting it on your own with no specific job ad and/or demand in mind is not P-F-T.
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I often am), but isn't P-F-T where you give a company money and they train you for their own company's procedures (useless anywhere else but there), while a type rating is marketable to anyone and stays on your ticket forever?

We had a student recently pass his helicopter private add-on checkride who is a F/O for American in the 777. I saw his existing license, first time I'd ever seen a 777 type. ;)

Fly Safe!
 
P-F-T defined

Whirlwind said:
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I often am), but isn't P-F-T where you give a company money and they train you for their own company's procedures (useless anywhere else but there), while a type rating is marketable to anyone and stays on your ticket forever?
That is the strict definition of P-F-T.

There was a Las Vegas company that ran an ad last summer. It said that new-hires must obtain a type rating at their own expense from the company's designated training vendor. The type can be marketed, so, strictly construed, the second prong of the P-F-T test fails. But it may as well be P-F-T because the company demanded the type, paid for by the applicant, from its designated vendor.
 
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MarineGrunt said:
Every corporate job posting I see, you always need "x" amount of hours in a jet or a certain type rating.

You had a slight typo, I think you meant to say "Every corporate job posting I see, you always need "x" amount of hours in a jet AND a certain type rating."

Save your money, a Type without significant Time-in-Type is pretty much worthless...
 
Age discrimination

CitationMan said:
So much for age discrimination in not getting the regional job. Bobby, just admit it that you f*cked up the interview and get over the discrimination crap.
Who said anything about age discrimination here? All I said regarding the Citation type is I didn't feel it helped me particularly on the sim ride. You obviously do not read things very carefully. Moreover, you are reading into what I wrote. All I wrote was that I was not hired at Eagle.

I always said I had interviews, for whatever reason, maybe just to fill a quota. I will say again, in case you didn't read my numerous writings on age discrimination carefully before, which you obviously have not, that I had said that I applied to plenty of commuters for years and never heard from all but five. The ones who never called include but are not limited to SkyWest, Horizon, GP-Express, Scenic and Continental Express. However, my much-younger instructor peers heard from many of these same companies, were interviewed by them, and were hired by them. They were 25 or less; I was 40. You go figure it out.

Nuff said this time. Go search my other posts for more.
 
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I see you have 400+ hours in your profile. Unless you meet 135 mins, a type can't do much for you right now. As mentioned, without the "time in type", the experience in the aircraft in question, a type is virtually worthless, unless you are applying to an operator like Southwest who wants to be sure you can understand the airplane before they hire you.

Some people who can afford to do so will collect type ratings like pokemon cards. I imagine it is fun and mentally challenging, and a great item of conversation as you walk from the tee to the green. But helping you to get a job sooner, without the experience? NO.

I can think of one exception to my advice: you are friends with someone who has a jet, for either charter or part 91 use, and has expressed a genuine interest in flying with you when you are more experienced. If he is going to put you to work for him, he should pay for the type. If this is just incidental flying for/with him, then a type will alow you to build safe and knowlegeable experience in a jet. Of course, this hardly ever happens to anyone I know. :D
 
alright, i skipped all the stuff above and went straight into a response from the initial post so bear with me if i sound like a broken record.

Number 1 - 400tt. if that is an accurate amount it wont matter if you have a type rating, no one is gonna hire you. Not even 135 in the right seat cause you wont meet 135 capt times by a long shot. Corp. operators wont hire you either as a captain or sic. They have high mins as well.

Number 2 - What kind of type? You thinking Lrjt, Ce500, KA350? None are gonna do you any good without time in type. The minimum to get a type rating doesn't give you enough time for anyone or insurance. Youll be wasting your money. Yeah, looks good on a resume and on a pilot certificate but will not produce any results.
 
The main reason I am asking is because in a year I will be going through training in the Air Guard to fly KC135s. During that time I will be getting a little over a hundred hours in a T-1 (Be400). Also stepping out of flight school I will have over 1100hrs TT and at least 300 turbine. I know thats still squat to most places, but would 100hrs in a T1 with a Be400 type mean anything?
 
Bobbysamd,
I have always enjoyed & learned a lot from your posts.
I have utmost respect.
However...

However, my much-younger instructor peers heard from many of these same companies, were interviewed by them, and were hired by them. They were 25 or less; I was 40. You go figure it out.

I was 38 when I was hired on at Skywest 2 years ago. In my initial groundschool class there were guys much older than I was, including a 55 year old gentleman.
One of my sim partners during my upgrade was an FO with less than a year with the company, who has less than 18 mos before mandatory retirement.

I'm definitely NOT trying to be confrontational. Merely defending the company I love working for, since you mentioned them by name.
I'm proud that Skywest not only hires youth challenged folks like myself, but also in this state of the industry, when they could easily pick only high-time, 121 experienced people, they hire a diverse group of folks including 1000/100 hr flight instructors, freight dogs, bush pilots, furloughees, and even Military helocopter pilots. :p :D
 
MarineGrunt

The 400 type will make your 100 hours in school much easier, and you can log your stick time as PIC turbine without a flinch. Add all that KC 135 time and you will be in good stead when it comes to interview time:

lots of turbine
type rating with time in type
PIC/SIC of a fairly large airplane

If you get a shot at heavy jet transport time, take it. Sounds like a winner to me.
 
Skywest aside

Originally posted by guitarflyer
I was 38 when I was hired on at Skywest 2 years ago. In my initial groundschool class there were guys much older than I was, including a 55 year old gentleman.
One of my sim partners during my upgrade was an FO with less than a year with the company, who has less than 18 mos before mandatory retirement.
I started applying to SkyWest in 1988. Their mins back then were 1000 total and 100 multi. I had close to 1000 total but maybe 35-40 of multi at the time. I thought that would be close enough, especially during a hiring boom. I wasn't called. I thought, well, okay, I don't quite meet the mins.

I went to work at ERAU and built time. I earned my ATP. I continued to send updates to SkyWest. During that time, I made and exceeded the mins. No phone calls from Skywest. I tried various techniques to get their attention, such as including self-addressed acknowledgment postcards requesting the correct pilot recruiter be written in. The postcards were always returned. I also received postcards that said that there were no openings. I later received postcards that said that I would be contacted if there were any openings. I still have most of my SkyWest correspondence in my files and would be pleased to share with you all the names of people to whom I addressed my letters and updated apps. I sent materials to SkyWest for six years, from 1988 to 1994.

I had a student who was hired there. She couldn't understand why after all my application efforts I was never called. In early 1994, she offered to walk in an app and resume for me. I took her up on it and gave her my documents and another check for the app fee, just in case I had fallen through the cracks. My check was returned with a letter noting that I had already paid the application fee. I obviously had not fallen through the cracks. No phone calls resulted from that effort. So, even with help, I could not get an interview.

In 1993, a Dale Merrill, who was SkyWest Vice-President of Human Resources, was interviewed for an article on the airline in the October, 1993 FAPA magazine, Career Pilot. Mr. Merrill was quoted as saying that a pilot who had not been hired by 2500 hours was "having problems" and in need of a "hard look." I remember reading that in the magazine and going ballistic. Once again, I started applying at less than mins, made the mins, and exceeded the mins. I was 37 when I sent my first inquiry to SkyWest and 43 when I gave up. In the meantime, apart from my former student who was hired there, I know of at least one other ERAU instructor who was hired at SkyWest. This gal was about 25, and, unlike my former student who had a little 135 time, had only been a Riddle CFI. I will not accept retorts that my former student and the other instructor were hired because they were women. My gal was a great pilot, and I knew the other one was a good pilot and flight instructor.

Any reasonable person would figure that after someone has been sending in applications for six years running that he/she must be very interested in the company and might be someone who might stay and repay its investment in that person. What would have been the harm to pick up the phone and interview me for a few minutes? It would have been no skin off their noses to bring me in for the interview; after all, isn't that H.R.'s function? I would have paid for my own transportation and lodging.

I appreciate your comments. In that spirit, I would hope that you would at least respect what I am saying. I am certainly glad that you were hired. However, when I see much-younger people than myself with essentially the same quals being hired while I am ignored, I can only say that the thing speaks for itself.
 
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Res ipsa loquitor.

How did a simple discussion on type ratings morph into an age discrimination discussion?
 
bobbysamd,

I respect your opinion on why you think you weren't called for an interview with SkyWest, and I can tell you are still hurt that they never called.

However, your logic that, "They didn't call me, it must have been age discrimination", is flawed. There are many people over the age of 35 (including our own guitarflyer) that have been hired at SkyWest. I remember at Eagle there being guys hired in their late 40s.

To say that because you applied for six years straight with no response equals age discrimination is again flawed reasoning. I applied to Alaska Airlines for three years straight. I went to every job fair they attended (except OBAP) and had letters of recommendation from three Alaska pilots. I met everyone in recruiting, as well as Capt. Majer, on several occasions. I still have not been hired, much less interviewed. Should I claim discrimination? Maybe I'm just not Alaska material. Maybe I'm not competitively qualified. Maybe someone took a disliking to me. Maybe Alaska just isn't hiring!

The point is, none of us will really know why we are overlooked for any potential pilot position unless we are truly willing to take a cold, hard look at ourselves. I know it's easier to say we were discriminated against, because that removes our own responsibilities for our successes and advancement in our careers. But the only way to move on and improve ourselves is to do the painful work of self-discovery.

Most of your posts seem to revolve around how you missed out on your life's dream because of age discrimination. I think that's how this thread morphed...someone else was expecting you to take it there, I guess. I hope you truly don't feel like you've missed out on your dream.
 
Ok-
Kinda back on the original topic.....

Number 1 - 400tt. if that is an accurate amount it wont matter if you have a type rating, no one is gonna hire you. Not even 135 in the right seat cause you wont meet 135 capt times by a long shot. Corp. operators wont hire you either as a captain or sic. They have high mins as well.

How about this... I graduate in a year with 350-400TT. A wealthy someone pays for me to get a type in some citation they own and fly them wherever on trips part 91....Anyone know costs on what the type would cost as well as what insurance rates (if even possible to get insured) would be like?
just wanna get a picture....
-thanks
 
U-I pilot said:
Anyone know costs on what the type would cost as well as what insurance rates (if even possible to get insured) would be like?

I think a Citation 500 Type from a reputable place like Flight Safety or Simuflight is around $12-15k.

As far as the insurance costs? I assume you mean you will be PIC? The insurance would probably be more than the annual fuel costs for the plane, especially if you wanted to be Single Pilot Certified.
 
Anyone know costs on what the type would cost as well as what insurance rates (if even possible to get insured) would be like?

I agree with cappy. A single pilot with 400TT and a fresh type rating might have only one avenue: self insurance. This would mean your wealthy friend would put up a bond in an escrow account to cover damages and liability. I would think about 40 million dollars would be sufficient.
 
what does PFT mean?
 
U-I pilot said:
Ok-
Kinda back on the original topic.....



How about this... I graduate in a year with 350-400TT. A wealthy someone pays for me to get a type in some citation they own and fly them wherever on trips part 91....Anyone know costs on what the type would cost as well as what insurance rates (if even possible to get insured) would be like?
just wanna get a picture....
-thanks
All ATPs does Citation 500 series types for just under $8k. If you're under 2,000hrs, you have almost no chance of getting insured in that airplane. Even if you do, it's gonna be mega-bucks.

Example- A local pilot was hired to fly a Citation 550 because he was the only local person to qualify for the job. He had about 9,000 hours. No jet time. The company that hired him had to really take it in the a$$ the first year he was flying both with insurance and also because they had to hire someone from Flight Safety to fly with him for the first hundred hours. So in other words, us low timers would be screwed in an insurance situation, even if we were legal to fly the plane.

I apologise for any type-o's. Too much wine at the folks house... :)
 

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