General Aviation

[tothelineplz]

I'd like to begin a new thread to open a discussion on accident/incident evaluation. The idea is not to simply speculate on causes, but rather to examine possible preventions and how these could have been avoided. Please refrain from "I wouldn't have done that" or "that would never happen to me" statements. There are many aviators out there who consider themselves experts in certain areas of this field, and I am interested in your inputs. Please be professional and courteous to your fellow aviators. Although not limited to GA, that is the primary focus simply because the rate per 100k is substantially higher than other types of flying.

Again, I ask that responses be limited to prevention oriented comments and ideas, so as to avoid the "I'm better than that pilot" syndrome. Remember, there are two kinds of pilots out there...those that have landed gear up and those that will.

I am very interested in hearing from the many competent and knowlegeable aviators out there and it'll be a break from reading post after post about how to get a job required minimums for this company or that...

I'll open the floor to whoever wants to submit the first incident/accident for discussion.

That is all...

 

[bigD]

Remember, there are two kinds of pilots out there...those that have landed gear up and those that will.

You know, I've heard this so many times, but have yet to meet any retired pilots that have belly landed an aiplane inadvertantly. Maybe they're just not admitting it, but I get the feeling that this quote was invented by those that just want to feel better about their forgetting to put the gear down.

That's not to say that I think it'll never happen to me, however I refuse to resign myself into thinking that it's inevitable. In the meantime I'll just try my best to not get complacent.

So let's discuss gear up landings. How can it happen? Distraction is the typical answer from what I've seen. I like to think that I do a good job of fighting against distraction by having several points during any given approach that I'm checking for three green. But I'd bet that everyone that's bellied in had some sort of plan they felt would prevent it from happening. So what's the deal?

 

[acaTerry]

I also do work as a flight training consultant and part of the support I provide is safety related issues. What I find most disturbing is that overwhelmingly the bottom line in nearly all accidents is human related. Now true that situations arise that gang up and overtask a crew or that the accident has had some just plain bad luck, but the human factor is most often blamed. But what is being done about it? A 3 day course on CRM for FO's and a week-long course on ACRM for Captains....they do some good but overlook some very overriding issues in Human behavior that are never spoken of because of the possibility of stepping on political toes. There is no place for political correctness or "being with todays time" in the cockpit. Safety is a timeless issue that does not care whose feelings get hurt or who go offended by CRM class or some study. If the wrong actions are performed, a plane will crash regardless of how someone "feels" about how they are handled.
An additional factor that can be helpful in accident prevention is a true pilot/ATC relationship on getting things done in a SAFE manner rather than what will get the job done. Case in point: AAL crash in NY last year. The A300 from wake turbulence. The latest focus is on the FO's "improper recovery technique"---too much rudder. My opinion is that had ATC not shoved an A300 so close up the a$$ end of a 747, it would not have happened. But not a word said yet about this. After all, ATC has the handwasher "caution wake turbulence".
Do you know how tired I get of hearing BlueRidge XXX maintain 200 to the marker, traffic ahead is a 747 at 3, make it 5 miles ahead, caution wake turbulence and a 757 3 miles in trail of you....
....The crew of the Jetstream failed to maintain safe distance behing the 747 despite the controllers warning. All aboard died as a result. Not me, I'll do all I can to make the system work well, but I will not die for a controller or because of the politics of people who move near airports and keep making the areas of traffic operation smaller and smaller.
This thread has the potential to run 40 pages. Get ready...

 

[TXCAP4228]

This thread has the potential to run 40 pages. Get ready...

I am surprised it hasn't yet.

I have less than 100 hours in RG's of various kinds, so I am no expert. It seems to me that the problem with gear ups is a breakdown in the normal descent and prelanding flow. I am sure this is especially true for non-professional pilots.

I think an added factor may be people who tend to fly fixed gear aircraft regularly and fly RG's only occaisionaly.

I refuse to accept that it is inevitable. But, put a pilot on a non precision approach with passengers and ATC talking to him (or her), in an airplane he only flies once or twice a month and rarely IFR and you have a recipe for being overloaded and forgetting to put the gear down (like forgetting to start the clock at the final approach fix).

Does anyone have any statistics for when this kind of accident happens?

 

[toneal]

A good warning would also be the prop hitting the runway...

 

[Vardog]

Nearly Impossible

Remember, there are two kinds of pilots out there...those that have landed gear up and those that will.

This is one of the biggest BS stories that there are in aviation. It is hard to believe that a professional pilot could allow himself to think this way, let alone speak this foolishness.

Maybe the solution to the problem of general aviation's accident/incident rate is to remove pilots from airplanes that think that a gear up landing is to be expected.


I hope that the American Medical Association doesn't have a belief "Remember, there are two kinds of doctors, those who have removed the wrong lung and those who will."

In our "nothing is ever my fault" society, we tolerate this kind of substandard performance. If we stop condoning this type of behavior with cute little sayings then we may actually take a step towards making pilots want to be more responsible.