Gameplan review

[ronbo422]

Need your input (was Gameplan review)

I'm new to this board and have a question that hopefully draws your honest feedback.
My story:
I'll be 37 in April and I'm wanting to change careers, to become a pro pilot. I haven't nailed down my long-term goal, because I'm focused more on training at this point, but am leaning either to corporate or airlines. After reading thru many of the boards, and the advice others have received, I am thinking of going thru ATP's Accelerated course. I've had my private for several years and meet the 85 hr min to start ATP's program. My question to you vets of the business is:
Am I making a good choice going thru ATP's 90-day program? Or should I go through a state colleges 21-mo program? I have 2 reasons for wanting to go accelerated. First, the industry's in a slump now, so training should be done now in order to build time over the next couple of years as an instructor/freight/charter pilot. I should be in a good position, TT-wise, to land a decent job when the industry's mood swing goes positive, so to speak. Second is my age. I feel that a fast start now is the only way to build any seniority/retirement plan wherever I end up flying.
After training, and once meeting the requirements, I will begin searching for a right-seat position in the regionals. A few years of that should give me a couple more thousand hours. At that point I'll come to the intersection of Airline Ave & Corporate Dr.
Well, that's about it. Tell me what you guys think.
Regards,
Ronbo

 

[bobbysamd]

Age and changing careers

I would only caution you to consider this move carefully and set realistic goals. I was 36 when I decided to change careers to aviation in 1987. Hiring was going through the roof, similar to that of a few years ago. I already had most of my ratings and just need my multi ratings. I had my degree. A couple of friends who were my age were successful at getting commuter jobs. I thought that if they could do it, I could do it.

I applied primarily to the commuters and freight. About a year later I got hired at ERAU as an instructor. My goal was the commuters. I pumped out tons of materials and heard primarily nothing. I did have six interviews, but got nowhere with them. About that time Mr. Hussein invaded Kuwait and several months later George Bush waged war against Mr. Hussein. In the meantime, my Riddle peers who were much younger than me were hearing from and were being hired by the places to which I applied but heard nothing. I was pushing my forties; they were in their twenties. You go figure it out.

Yes, I believe that age discrimination exists at the regionals. It could be for any number of reasons, such as unenlightened H.R. or fear that an older person might stay and top out at scale and vest in their retirement plan, both of which will cost them money. Regionals usually figure pilots will stay long enough to build enough time to move on. They don't figure that pilots will stay, although that will change as the airline industry remodels itself.

You might hear that the majors hire pilots past 40. They might, but these are usually very experienced pilots who are well qualified and who have been flying for years. There are one or two exceptions, but are definitely not the norm.

I sincerely urge you to consider these points. Once you finish school and build time you will be in line behind furloughees being recalled and your younger peers with more experience.

Corporate is a realistic goal for you. You have to make the contacts. I do not feel that for new pilots approaching 40 that the regionals or the majors are realistic, especially in these times.

Good luck with your plans. I know that I'm the lone voice in the wilderness on the issue of age discrimination in pilot hiring, but at least you've heard it.

 

[ronbo422]

Thanks for the info, especially on the age discrimination part. That part has actually rolled through my mind in thinking about this career change. But, my gut feeling tells me to go for it. Actually, I believe they aren't gut feelings or intuitions, but rather the Holy Spirit leading me. To tell you the truth, I'm not after the big money that the airlines have to offer. I just wanna do something that I really love for a living. Something that makes me happy. I make OK money as an electronics tech now, and would be happy to get back to my present salary within 5-8 years. I do look back now and wish I had started when I was in my early 20's. But God has a purpose for everything, so I'm not going to judge His timing pertaining to my life.
I've been reading the posts here and the corporate aviation path seems the most pleasing to me. But I expect those feelings to fluctuate once I'm into this endeavor several years from now. I realize there are pluses and minuses at every fork in the road.
Once again, I thank you for your candid feedback.
Regards, and happy flying.
~Ron

 

[need2AV8]

Well, if God leads, then do it. As far as corporate aviation goes, I must tell you - from what I've seen, the large majority of corporate pilots live on a pager. Others on this board could tell you much more than I. Personally, I couldn't live like that unless I were desparate. Research the lifestyles/schedules of each avenue of aviation as you gain experience.

Enjoy.

 

[slickmagneto]

Pagers my arss. Everybody has a cellphone now. You can't hide anymore!

 

[duksrule]

Just one man's thoughts.

OK let start by saying that I am not taking anything away from the folks on this board. There are many points of view and everyone is entitled to theirs.

With that being said I don't buy the age discrimination BS. There are more people on this board that have gotten jobs in their 30s-40s than people who haven't. Fact is if no one hired late 30s early 40s pilots then none of the guys who retired from the military would be working which a lot of them are. Sure the industry is in the crapper right now. I see it like the stock market. Now is the time to get ready for your windfall. I am in a similar situation. I will be retiring from the military here in a few years from a non-flying job and will be entering the industry. I will be 37 and I don't think that is a problem.

You will get killed on this board for talking about PFT so I will only say this. The multi PIC hours are what counts. Get them how ever you can. Also before I made a life changing decision on the recommendation of others I would make some calls to the people who set behind the desk that will be looking at your resume. It is easy for someone to tell you what you should do. I would say call around and talk to some people who make the hiring decisions. At least you would be getting it from the horses mouth. There seem to be a lot of people flying today that did some form of PFT. I see it just like getting my Masters Degree. I am "paying" for advanced education that will hopefully get me in the door ahead of the next guy. Look at the amount of airlines that will take you with half of their required minimums if you went to X school. Must be something to it.

Just the opinion of a guy in the same boat as you so take it with a grain of salt. Good luck.

 

[ronbo422]

Good idea

Talking to those who hire the pilots is s good idea. I'll just have to do some digging to find these people. A seminar or convention would be nice.
Thanks for your advice.
~Ron

 

[embdrvr]

Ronbo,
Go for it if you don't mind taking the vows of poverty for a while.

Don't get too concerned about the age discrimination thing. You either interview well or you don't. If you interview well you'll likely get hired. My new hire class had guys from all age groups. I've seen some new hires that look like they should be thinking about retirement in the next 2 years.

 

[pilotyip]

How to make it

There is no future at the majors, they will redefine themselves into something different, so if you want an aviation career, start flying and start your career, Too much value is put on the value of 4 yr degree in aviation and it is misplaced. What do you want to do, become a pilot and get a flying job no matter what, or do you want to have a "life style" making lots of money, lots of days off, only work when he wants to by bidding lines he likes, and free travel all over? It makes me think of the pilot at meet at Air Inc in ATL in 2000 who was pursuing life style, before he had the hours for his first job. Any one reading this board can make it as a pilot and eventually make it to a point where they can live on what they make, it may not be a "major", but it might be a good charter operation, a good corporate job, or something involving flying airplanes. It is hard, it is lots of moves, you go where the next job is, it is living in flop houses with 4 other pilots and one bathroom down the hall, it not buying any new underwear for one year, it is driving a car that you jump start from the battery you keep in the apt on a charger, it is being 100% subservient to your bosses wishes until you can move to your next job and he gives you a good recommendation, it is saying no to your brothers birthday party, it is saying no to being home a Christmas. Come to think about it, this sounds alot like being in the Navy, except for the underwear part. They made us get new stuff. You do not need a 4 yr degree to make it as a successful pilot, in fact you may get to the non "major" level of flying quicker without the time wasted in the pursuit of the 4 yr degree, you need a talent for flying, you need a most gracious personality that focuses on what you can give and not what you can take, and a goal is sight that you will pursue no matter what. Family, girl fiends (more than one night) , babies, do not count, they only get in the way. I have had more than one flight student, older guys starting flying in their late 40's early 50's, tell me they wished they had it all to do over again, they would gone into flying as soon as they could of, but Suzy (girl friend) wanted the house, the babies, and when she wants babies who can resist the temptation, the family lifestyle, and they thought there would be time later, but once the commitments come and you elect to honor them, there is no later, until all the kids have left home and you are semi free again. I know this post will probably bring out some different views, because it so politically incorrect, and besides I am semi management in a bottom feeder industry, so what would I know about an aviation career. But you ask, so here is my input from the prospective of 35 years in this business.

 

[ronbo422]

Good feedback

The 4-year degree thing is my other obstacle. I have a post-high school education in electronics, but it was a fast-paced course thru DeVry University that concluded with a Digital Electronics Diploma, not an assoc. degree. I had a family right after high school and that was the quickest way to put more meat on the table. I worked a full-time job supporting them while going to night school for 2 years, graduating with a 4.0 GPA. Since then I've made a good living, the last 7 years working for Motorola. But the tech manufacturing industry is heading off shores at a rapid pace, leaving me and thousands of others out of a job and dumping us into a market that's saturated with people in the same position. They may not be from manufacturing, but the tech field in general. I didn't know how far my education and technical background/work history would get me in aviation. Everywhere I've looked I've read people saying "you need a 4-yr degree". And it all appears to show that you have the fortitude to stick with something. Yeah, I could see this applying to a 23-yr-old college grad, who hasn't had the life experience to learn what it takes to stick with something. But I feel that I've more than proven myself with over 13 years in the field as a technician.
In regards to family, I have one (another one, actually). My son is an infant, who won't mind the moves. My wife is a nurse, and we've discussed the possibility of multiple moves and reduced salary for the next several years. She is perfectly fine with it. I can truley see in her heart that she wants me to pursue my dream of flying and will be there beside me until I reach that goal. Like I mentioned in previous posts, it's not the money I'm after...it's the flying. I'm not after a life style. I'm a hard worker who has lived a "normal" life with a car payment, a mortgage and good friends. The only thing wifey asked of me is that she wants to eventually end up back in Texas, once I determine which catagory I want to be in. I think that is pretty do-able. May take some time, but achievable. She has no problem finding work as a nurse, and she'll be obtaining her RN's license once we get back state-side, increasing her salary by 30+% overnight. This takes some relief off of my salary demands as a pilot...in the beginning years anyways. I told her that if I play my cards right, and take an accelerated approach to training, that I could possibly be back to my present salary (or reasonably close to)in 5-6 years, maybe sooner. She's fine with that.

Getting back to the issue of degrees, I've found a few online programs that sound feasable. But my question is still...would one be necessary to achieve the type of career I'm looking for? Don't get me wrong, I will do what it takes, just as long as my efforts aren't futile. I would hope an HR dept. would look positively at my previous education, and the career I've built on that education. Would that suffice for a bachelors degree?
Thanks, Pilotyip, for your words of wisdom.
Ronbo