Former LEX 'Controller' View

[FlyBunny]

"Scott Zoeckler, a 35-year veteran controller who retired two years ago after 27 years at Blue Grass Airport, said the controller's main role is to direct air traffic to make sure planes aren't getting in each others' way, not to make sure the pilots are doing their job correctly."

The above quote is in the Lexington Herald-Leader...I'm just 'cutting and pasting'. Just wanted to see what folks think of his assumption?

For me, me and my captain were lined up on Rwy 27 (taxi in to position and hold); the tower cleared the approaching airplane to land on runway 12. Tower then cleared us for take off with a left turn to 230 heading. All went well, we took off, made a left turn, the other plane landed fine on 12, etc.

The taxiway that took us from parking to Rwy 27 also continued on to Rwy 30. We could’ve made a mistake, just like the pilots in Comair 5191 (and in this case both Rwy 27 & 30 were instrument runways with ample length for a Transport Category airplane and in good condition) and lined up on a Rwy 30, the same runway where the other plane has been cleared to land on the opposite side.

Now, according to Mr. Zoeckler, he, or other controllers, don’t have any responsibility to ensure that we were indeed at the right runway?

Not condoning what pilots did in LEX, but mistakes happen; experienced pilots can make a mistake just like a student pilot. These pilots in LEX crash were both accomplished, proficient, fit, skilled, knowldeable, current, etc. They did not leave the hotel in the morning with a death wish. But, they made a mistake. If the controller ensured that the pilots were on the correct runway, that would’ve been one ‘link’ in the ‘chain of error’ that could’ve prevented the LEX accident.

But, not according to Mr. Zoeckler!

My two cents. I invite comments.

Thanks.

Bunny

 

[HoserASA]

If the controller ensured that the pilots were on the correct runway, that would’ve been one ‘link’ in the ‘chain of error’ that could’ve prevented the LEX accident.

I agree and that's what I've been saying on other threads. The controller did not cause this accident, but may have prevented it if he had watched the plane begin takeoff roll. That and the obvious need for two controllers in that tower at that time of the day. In the USAF, we always had a minimum of two controllers on duty in the tower. It was an Air Force regulation that made it so.

Hoser

 

[ReportCanoa]

His comments do not change the fact that an FAA mandate was violated.

 

[ground stop]

ntsb report will just add that a contibuting factor was the faa's inadaquate staffing of the LEX control tower. not the controller's fault but as previously stated, part of the "chain of errors."

 

[atrdriver]

I still think it would have been pretty easy for the controller, especially at an airport where the taxi routes have recently changed, to ask in the taxi clearance if the crew is familiar with thr new taxi routes.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

After flying out of KLEX for several months, it is not uncommon for the controller to look out and see the a/c holding short of the short rwy. Even though you are cleard to taxi to rwy 22, most guys still hold short of rwy 26 as that is the rwy you to first and don't want to cross an active rwy w/o clearance. It is a CYA deal so most guys stop and confirm cleared to cross. So if the controller glanced up and saw this, he probably didn't think anything of it.

When he issued his t/o clearance and said rwy 22 cleared for t/o, he assumed they would cross rwy 26 for t/o on 22.

 

[atrdriver]

My understanding is that the former taxi route is no longer available, or was not that morning. IOW, if that is the case, they wouldn't have gone by the north end of the terminal and crossed 26 at the end going to 22 like we always have in the past.

 

[Wasted]

As pilots, we treat our operations on the surface of the airport as a sterile environment. Why can't the guy in the tower cab on duty actively controlling the movement of aircraft on his airport treat it with the same respect?

 

[Smellycat]

Lights

My understanding is that the former taxi route is no longer available, or was not that morning. IOW, if that is the case, they wouldn't have gone by the north end of the terminal and crossed 26 at the end going to 22 like we always have in the past.

Will be very interesting to read CVR transcript. The buzz is they spoke of the lack of lights, but.... so did they or not, and if so, this should have been the one clue. They didnt see the 26 because they turned after it most likely (its buried right at the threshold from the overhead shot.)

I hate this whole thing with a purple passion, mostly because...I can see it happening to me on a bad day and I do not like that one bit.

 

[400pilot]

My understanding is that the former taxi route is no longer available, or was not that morning. IOW, if that is the case, they wouldn't have gone by the north end of the terminal and crossed 26 at the end going to 22 like we always have in the past.

The taxi route is the same....the only difference is after you cross 26. The north "A" is closed and you must use A5 (which might have been renamed A....don't remember)

 

[ReportCanoa]

The taxi route is the same....the only difference is after you cross 26. The north "A" is closed and you must use A5 (which might have been renamed A....don't remember)

Which makes it markedly different, in my opinion.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

What amazes me is that thier isn't a fed regulation requiring rwy egde lts be on for all nt time ops t/o and ldg. This may have made the difference and made the twr ctlr look up had he been queried.

 

[rjcap]

Which makes it markedly different, in my opinion.

Would it change what the heading bug on either PFD or the wet compass would indicate ?

 

[Flying-Corporal]

I still think it would have been pretty easy for the controller, especially at an airport where the taxi routes have recently changed, to ask in the taxi clearance if the crew is familiar with thr new taxi routes.

Usually at small airports like Blue Grass Lex. taxiway layout is so easy that you don't even bother pulling the diagram. Add to this complete absense of other traffic in 6am, and you'll see how easy it is to get complacent.

I suspect the controller hadn't seen many errors like that either at his airport during his 17 years of employment.

 

[400pilot]

Which makes it markedly different, in my opinion.

Yes...but they never made it that far........

 

[dhc8fo]

it is not uncommon for the controller to look out and see the a/c holding short of the short rwy. Even though you are cleard to taxi to rwy 22, most guys still hold short of rwy 26 as that is the rwy you to first and don't want to cross an active rwy w/o clearance. It is a CYA deal so most guys stop and confirm cleared to cross.

I have done this very thing at this airport myself.

 

[BCpilot81]

As much as it seriously pains me to say, the crew obviously made a fatal mistake. However, I taught at an airport that only helf its category rating due to high volume military training (KHRL Harlingen, TX). Being a slow airport, I developped a friendship with our controllers and would frequent the cab when there was down time. I will say, that no matter what, the controllers there always monitored traffic progress on the ground and in the air, and several times aided in averting mistakes. I do not say this to remove or place blame on absolutely any party in particular, however, I will say that a consumate professional in this industry understands that "CRM" does extend well beyond the flight deck.

 

[twighead]

A tower controller is responsible for aircraft separation on the runways. I don't think this is possible if the controller doesn't know which runway the airplane is using. So, I would say that without a doubt the controller has responsibility in this matter.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

A tower controller is responsible for aircraft separation on the runways. I don't think this is possible if the controller doesn't know which runway the airplane is using. So, I would say that without a doubt the controller has responsibility in this matter.

As the FO during taxi out you work the radio while the cpt taxi the a/c. You call ready for taxi and recieve your taxi instructions then read it back to confirm you got and understand your instructions, that is how the controller confirms you recieved and understood his directions. It is then assumed that you will follow these instructions and if you have a question will ask.

With that said, controllers are human and do make mistakes ie. the KPVD case study. How many times does an approach controller turn you on final too close behind traffic resulting in a go-around. These are cases of pure ATC error/misjudgement, not the KLEX tragedy.

 

[WSurf]

A tower controller is responsible for aircraft separation on the runways. I don't think this is possible if the controller doesn't know which runway the airplane is using. So, I would say that without a doubt the controller has responsibility in this matter.

The crew made a mistake.... I fly out of atleast 5 or 6 cities that are uncontrolled, and sometime the towers don't open till 7am! It was night, and with that runway diagram it would be hard for the controller to tell where that comair plane was. Controller was not responsible for this!!!! Day time is a different story, the controller might have been able to see or help! Bottom line.... Crew made a mistake like many of us, however most of our mistakes are livable and we are able to learn from ours and move on!!

 

[JCJ]

A tower controller is responsible for aircraft separation on the runways. I don't think this is possible if the controller doesn't know which runway the airplane is using. So, I would say that without a doubt the controller has responsibility in this matter.

The counter argument will be if the mishap aircraft was the only aircraft on the airport (which may well be true at LEX at 6 AM), the controller wouldn't need to monitor the aircraft movement to ensure separation. Since separation from other traffic wasn't an issue, the controller probably went on to do his other ATC duties after issuing the proper takeoff clearance. Remember there were other departures scheduled to follow this one with the associated clearances to obtain, etc.

Safety monitoring by ATC is usually on a "as time and conditions allow" basis. The first proirity of ATC is separation from other known traffic. Obviously everyone wishes that the ATCT controller could have seen the wrong line-up in time to stop it, but I think under the current rules he won't bear any official responsibility for the crash. The primary responsibility to ensure the aircraft is lined up for take off on the runway for which it was cleared still belongs to the PIC.

Maybe there will be a change in ATC responsibilities in the wake of this crash. If we want continuous safety monitoring by ATC, we will need to do better than staffing facilities like the LEX ATCT & tracon (combined) with one controller who is working radar and tower on two hours of sleep.

 

[need2fly]

You point out yourself that the controller is responsible to make sure multiple aircraft do not occupy the same point in space at the same time. At 0600 on a Sunday morning, Comair was the only aircraft moving on the airport. So once he issued his instructions, he knew there was nothing out there for Comair to hit.

Know he could have contiuned to monitor thier progress and reminded them about the runway assigment when the turned onto 26, but he had other stuff to do.

As has been said many time...ATC will probably be a casual factor, but that is it. This one is on the pilots.

n2f

 

[Wankel7]

Would it change what the heading bug on either PFD or the wet compass would indicate ?

After you fire up the window heat the wet compass should be worthless.

 

[twighead]

I think some of you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I'm not blaming the controller for anything.

However, despite what the controller in the original post says, the controller definitely shares responsibility in this situation. The pilots have a much larger share of the responisbility in this situation, but the controller shares some responsibility.

 

[CoATP]

Usually at small airports like Blue Grass Lex. taxiway layout is so easy that you don't even bother pulling the diagram. Add to this complete absense of other traffic in 6am, and you'll see how easy it is to get complacent.

I suspect the controller hadn't seen many errors like that either at his airport during his 17 years of employment.

The airport chart comes out even if I have flown into and out the airport four times a day four days a week for 18 months and there is only one rwy and 1 taxiway. It is only easy to be complacent if you allow it. High familiarity with approach, airport, aircraft should be a flag that procedures need to be followed it is much to easy to fly, hear, taxi on "what we've done forever" rather than on actual clearance. Fly as a professional (in the classical sense rather than the paid sense)

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

The airport chart comes out even if I have flown into and out the airport four times a day four days a week for 18 months and there is only one rwy and 1 taxiway. It is only easy to be complacent if you allow it. High familiarity with approach, airport, aircraft should be a flag that procedures need to be followed it is much to easy to fly, hear, taxi on "what we've done forever" rather than on actual clearance. Fly as a professional (in the classical sense rather than the paid sense)

Correct me if I am wrong, but my flight instructor told me that it is an FAA requirement that you have an airport diagram of the airport you are flying into, and out of. This doesn't necessarily mean it is on your lap, but I always keep one out when taxiing, and as ATC gives me a clearance, I note it on the diagram. This holds true at my home airport, even though I am very familiar with it. BUT, the issue here, is that supposedly the airport diagram they would have had, was not updated with the recent work and sign changes made. Even if they were looking at a diagram, they could have become confused.

 

[mullet]

Usually at small airports like Blue Grass Lex. taxiway layout is so easy that you don't even bother pulling the diagram. Add to this complete absense of other traffic in 6am, and you'll see how easy it is to get complacent.

I suspect the controller hadn't seen many errors like that either at his airport during his 17 years of employment.

One of the dumbest post I have seen in a long time, especially from some one who claims to fly 121.
a. use your airport diagram everytime and at every airport.
b. the controller probably saw errors like that weekly and with the airports
construction, daily.

 

[ATCT]

It is the jobf of the controller (Quoting from the old 7110.65, I believe the M or L edition, change 1) to make for the "Safe, Orderly, and Expeditious flow of traffic." It is not our job to make sure you take off the right runway. Now if I see ya taking off the wrong one, I'll say something, but technically Its not really my job. The controller in LEX did nothing wrong. Welcome to the FAA understaffing a facility yet again....Not like ALPA cares or anything. Hopefully it'll change before someone else dies.

ATCT

 

[twepilot]

"It is the jobf of the controller (Quoting from the old 7110.65, I believe the M or L edition, change 1) to make for the "SAFE, Orderly, and Expeditious flow of traffic."

Would ensuring that the aircraft departs on a SAFE runway for that particular operation be a controllers responsibilty? I think that it is. I too am familar with 7110.65

RV

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

It's NOT the controller's fault:

1) Runway 26 was closed.
2) Runway 26 was so closed that the lights were even off.
3) The pilot was (assumably) issued a "taxi to" and "cleared for takeoff" from Runway 22.
4) Instead of following the clearance he was issued, the pilot departed on a closed, unlit, runway with a rough surface, 40 degrees off of the RH he was supposed to be on.
5) And you guys want to blame the controller???

6) Additionally, the second controller that was supposed to be on duty was for RADAR services, i.e. approach control, not for the "Tower" functions.

It is completely unfair for us to blame the controllers for this one.