For E-145 pilots...

[91100 100 set]

The other day, we had a #1 Hydraulic System lose all (or most) of it's quantity. "E1 HYD PUMP FAIL" and "HYD 1 LOW QUAN" (or similar, you get the idea) were presented. The hydraulic page showed the quantity carrat pegged to the left, in the amber, with the electric pump ON. No other EICAS messages. Did the QRH, basically no actions required, just some info and references to other procedures should the system fail entirely, but we did slow to 250 in case the system dumped completed and opened the nose doors, and we also lowered the gear early in case it didn't and we needed to deal with that. The gear came down normally, but with some pressure flucuations between 2000 and 2900 (I might have seen it as low as 1600 while the gear was coming down). But it apparently wasn't enough to trip a failure message. We briefed the checklist for it and discussed declaring and bracing the people for landing, but we (he) decided not to. I figured we get it on landing, but I'm not the boss and thats not what this thread is about. So we land and get the failure, with the loss of the outboard brakes and steering. Long, dry, wide runway with negligable wind, so we lucked out with that, but we were disabled on the runway and had to get towed in. ATC, CFR and company ops were a little off-guard, wanting to know why we landed with a hydraulic failure without declaring, and the captain had to field a few phone calls, but again, not what this thread is about. Turns out, the pressure line out of the engine pump was sliced by a clamp and apparently dumped the contents in short order when we got the first two EICAS messages. I know that little to no demand is placed on the hydraulic system during cruise flight, and I wasn't surprised that we lost it on landing with the demand from the brakes, spoilers, and reverser. So there was just enough fluid left in the system to keep the pressure at 2900 (from the electric pump) with no load. But my question has to do with lowering the gear. I understand that some systems simply use hydraulic pressure to keep the gear from "banging" down hard from gravity, and there is little "pumping down" actually involved, which is suspect is the case here (after the fact), explaining why lowering the gear didn't trip a failure message. Anybody have any similar experiences? I learned quite a bit from this little misadventure, and I'm worried that the company's QRH doesn't quite cover all the bases in this situation.

 

[Britpilot]

I had the exact same thing happen to me in the summer of 02 CVG-EWR in a 135. A seal let go in the left spoiler and dumped all the fluid. Emergency declared and landed in EWR. We were disabled on the runway and had to be towed to the gate. Sytem worked as advertized so no big deal.
An emergency call costs nothing and would have been prudent in your case.

 

[Tina Fey's Scar]

I'm worried that the company's QRH doesn't quite cover all the bases in this situation.

Dude you must work at Chaniqua... with a post like that.

Do you remember systems class? Remember those little things called uplocks? Why would there be a significant load on the hyd system during extension? The alternate extension method is a free fall.

 

[Chicken Taco]

TFS beat me to it, system loads up on RETRACTION, not extension. Alternate extension is to mecanically pull the uplocks and let it go, works best above 200kt where you have higher airloads to help..

..CT

 

[pianoman]

Dude you must work at Chaniqua... with a post like that.

Do you remember systems class? Remember those little things called uplocks? Why would there be a significant load on the hyd system during extension? The alternate extension method is a free fall.

Random bastard man. Go kick your dog and get it all out.

 

[labbats]

There's nothing worse than a triple chime that doesn't say hi to steve.

 

[ATRedneck]

There's nothing worse than a triple chime that doesn't say hi to steve.

It's not a limitation, it's a goal!

But I think the E1-2 HYD PUMP FAIL is a caution message, and the HYD 1-2 LO QTY is just an advisory.

 

[91100 100 set]

An emergency call costs nothing and would have been prudent in your case.

I know that, and I would have been more comfortable with declaring the emergency. But like I said, it wasn't my call. If faced with the same situation in the future, I will relate the story and insist.

TFS, you need to chill. Of course I know that the alternate extension is a free-fall. I was simply looking for input about how much load is involved during an extension (somebody to verify my theory). Without being a smartass. We know you hate CHQ. So did I. I wish Siegal hadn't made a mockery of my former company, causing me to start over. I don't like jerking the gear and filling out endless weight and balance forms for people with half the time I do, while they all talk about how excited they are to get all those MDA 170's that my friends and respected former coworkers are flying (I would have been too, but I took a gamble). But I show up, do the job, provide input to try to keep us out of the weeds and the chief pilot's office, take home my paycheck, and spend my time worrying about other things. So keep your implied political commentary to yourself, or on some other thread.

ATR, I would have thought that an "E1 (or 2) HYD PUMP FAIL" would have been a caution message as well. I don't have the books in front of me, nor am I inclined to go get them at the moment to check it out, but I'm 99% sure that it was a cyan advisory message. Perhaps the Embraer logic is that the electric pump backing up the engine pump is sufficient?

What specifically worries me in this case is this. We followed the QRH to the letter. Going "beyond the QRH", common sense told us that under the described scenario, a complete failure was likely, so we had at least talked about and thought about that scenario, even if we didn't go the final step of actually declaring the emergency. We were also fortunate with the long runway and negligable crosswind. The next time this kind of thing happens, will the next crew have enough common sense? Or will they be tired at the end of the day, or will they be landing on a shorter runway, or will tower to ask them to clear ASAP on the next high-speed, only to be surprised that they have a seriously compromised airplane and end up in the mud.

 

[CaravanMan]

Hey, I've got a question for you ERJ pilots... what are those 4 yellow "prongs" on the wings?

 

[Britpilot]

Hey, I've got a question for you ERJ pilots... what are those 4 yellow "prongs" on the wings?

Vortilons.

 

[Britpilot]

I know that, and I would have been more comfortable with declaring the emergency. But like I said, it wasn't my call. If faced with the same situation in the future, I will relate the story and insist.

I wasn't getting on you and I understand your situation. It's just a hydrulic failure of this nature that causes the loss of 50% braking, spoiler, thrust reverser deployment and steering loss, should prompt an emergency call. Just my opinion.

 

[91100 100 set]

Vortilons.

Thats where we hang the rockets from. We shoot them at the gate area to get the marshallers off their duffs and wave us in. We have to use them alot, so you rarely ever see any actual rockets hanging from them.

And yes, in hindsight, I agree and should have insisted.

 

[LearLove]

I don't like jerking the gear and filling out endless weight and balance forms for people with half the time I do, while they all talk about how excited they are to get all those MDA 170's that my friends and respected former coworkers are flying (I would have been too, but I took a gamble).

O this should get good.......

If your in DC in the next 6 days give me a call, I'm doin "time" in the crashpad, aka my Arlington "vacation home".

 

[igneousy2]

Hey, I've got a question for you ERJ pilots... what are those 4 yellow "prongs" on the wings?

They get pushed up into the airstream ahead of the leading edge during high AoA maneuvers. They work the same way as vortex generators otherwise.

Later

 

[igneousy2]

Hey, I've got a question for you ERJ pilots... what are those 4 yellow "prongs" on the wings?

They are also their to imprint a scar in the forehead of newbie FO's...man do they hurt.

 

[91100 100 set]

I wasn't getting on you and I understand your situation. It's just a hydrulic failure of this nature that causes the loss of 50% braking, spoiler, thrust reverser deployment and steering loss, should prompt an emergency call. Just my opinion.

And to clarify, we did not get the complete failure (with the loss of the braking, etc) UNTIL we actually touched down and put a load on the system.

Yes Lear, this might get rolling, but it's not what the thread is supposed to be about. And no, I haven't seen DCA since last summer, nor am I scheduled to this month. I will see alot of IAD, but only for an hour at a time.

 

[Flechas]

.........................................

 

[Britpilot]

And to clarify, we did not get the complete failure (with the loss of the braking, etc) UNTIL we actually touched down and put a load on the system.

Yep, same as my incident. The system sort of hides the fact that all this stuff is going to fail when you need it. The only clue to all this is the hydraulic level indicator on the MFD. We saw this and with the added opinion of MX we knew the assoociated systems would fail on touch down. We ran the QRH for System 1 Hydraulic Failure. Certainly got my atention on a Sunday morning.