Flying the ILS

[ibaflyer]

Ok everyone, here is the question. When should you dirty up the plane for landing ( flaps and landing gear) during the ILS?

I was taught during my IFR instruction that at the outer marker, the gear should be comming down and approach flaps set but last night during an IFR Comp Check, the CFII that was with me told me to intercept the glideslope, go one dot high and drop the gear and approach flaps. His reasoning was that the extra drag will bring you back down on the glide slope.

I guess it is all in what you are taught but I would like to hear what everyone else does in this matter. Keep in mind I'm talking about a Piper Lance and not the big iron.

 

[labbats]

If in icing conditions, hold out until you break out. But if it's normal conditions, I see the reasoning with a dot high approach before you drop the gear. OM can be glide slope intercept, and sometimes when you (unconveniently) must contact tower. Adding gear to that mess seems wisely avoidable.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I really think it's a "strokes/folks" issue. There are those who "gear down/go down" and others who "gear down/slow down" and those who do things differently depending on where Vlo and Vfe are in relation to each other. I don't know about the Lance, but the Arrow's Vlo is much higher than it's Vfe making "gear down/slow down" and "flaps down/go down" a good option, while retractable Cessna singles have Vlo and Vfe in much closer proximity to each other, giving some more options.

Living in an area without a lot of flyable IMC and flying both types of airplanes, I figured that I needed all the help I could get to make things as simple for myself as I could. So, my personal preference is to get gear, flaps and airspeed in the configuration I will use to fly from the FAF to the runway before well before crossing the FAF. That way, the =only= thing I have to when crossing the FAF or GSI is reduce power. Barely even have to touch the trim.

 

[FSB99]

well said, mark.
it'd be hard to say when you should do anything.
the point is to be stabilized and in a position to land. that being said, i wouldn't drop the gear at decision height.. hopefully it's already down. but, then again, if you drop the gear at some arbitrary height, say, 500 feet, then you're changing configuration, gonna have to retrim, airspeed changing, etc. may be considered unstable by some, but perfectly fine by others, considering the airport, traffic, etc.. i.e., you've got a 737 on your tail, and you're in a 172RG.. those 5 knots may make the difference.
best answer is to do what you've been trained, and do it the same way, every time, until you're so used to it that it's habit.. then you can amend things here and there... but, procedurally, you're safer doing things out of habit, than trying to invent an approach procedure every time you do one.
and in reference to the piper lance vs. bigger planes.. each plane varied, that i've flown, as far as procedures. in a c310, approach flaps were already in on the base turn (pt outbound), and gear came down at the faf. in a piper arrow, gear came down pt inbound (base leg) and approach flaps at faf. now, in an erj, the airplane is dirtied up as dirty as it gets by the marker, gs intercept, situation respective, so that there's nothing more to do on the final approach segment...
the point i'm struggling with trying to make here, is, the procedures for each airplane may be different, but the end result should all be the same.. that being a stabilized approach (final approach segment) in a position to land without doing any last minute configuration changes.

 

[bobbysamd]

ILS Config

[T]he CFII that was with me told me to intercept the glideslope, go one dot high and drop the gear and approach flaps. His reasoning was that the extra drag will bring you back down on the glide slope.

It boils down to technique. Here's some more food for thought.

At MAPD, and, as I recall at FSI, too, with our Alitalia guys, we taught to put out approach flaps long before crossing the FAF, as soon as crossing the IAF outbound during a full procedure. You would have power set for the approach. Then, one dot above, throw out the gear. By the time the GS centered the gear was out and provided just enough drag to track the glideslope with minimal power and trim changes. These were line procedures used by both of these airlines. Although we used these procedures in Bonanzas (Mesa) and Seminoles (Alitalia), they were the same procedures used in the big iron. They should work fine in your Lance.

I've also heard that you should establish your final landing configuration at the FAF inbound; the rationale being that you should not change configurations so low to the ground. That thought has merit.

I do not agree with establishing the landing configuration far out before crossing the FAF inbound. No need to have so much drag out so early. I learned from our Alitalia training captains that that was not done in jets because it used too much fuel.

Hope that helps some more.

 

[ksu_aviator]

My answer to this question always is, what does the POH say?

If the POH doesn't have anything in it, then do what every you need to do to be stabalized on the approach.

As a rule of thumb:

For single engine fixed: Approach flaps at FAF, Full flaps when commited to land

For single engine retract: Approach flaps and gear down at FAF and Full flaps when commited to land

For light multi engine: Approach flaps and gear down at FAF and Full flaps when commited to land

For ligth multi engine, engine out: gear down and Approach flaps at FAF

For transport category: Full flaps and gear down at FAF

For Transport Category, engine out: Approach flaps and gear down at FAF and full flaps when commited to land

But, if the POH states a procedure, you would be best off to follow that procedure.

 

[Mickey]

I'll second KSU's brief.

I am amazed at how many people flying a check ride in a single would fly all the way to minimums without any flaps. They would be waiting for me to say "go missed," but I would usually say "look up and land." This would get really interesting. The people flying older 172s at high approach speeds such as 90kts would reach for the flap lever and freeze when I pointed out they had just increased their speed above 90 and I wouldn't want them to exceed a limitation on the check ride. If they were below 90 or in a newer 172 they would usually balloon up about one hundred feet and then I would tell them they are back in the clouds. Then there was the guy in the 182RG, 120kts and no flaps...I wasn't too impressed.

Remember. The purpose of an approach is to get in a position to make a normal landing. Sometimes instructors hammer the missed so much that students fly the approach in order to go missed, (which, they do well,) unfortunately they don't practice landing from approaches enough

Take care.

 

[SDdriver]

Well my opinion is to try and get comfortable doing it many different ways. THis will help you when you get into bigger planes and real world flying. Most time when going into Louisiville at night during the push, we had to maintain cruise speed to the OM, then it was a matter of going high dumping everything out and reintercept. There are other days that at the OM I would call gear down app flaps app checks. the 15deg and final checks on the way down. I would never dump it all out prior to the Marker unless ATC needed me going real slow for traffic. My advise is practice all different ways of doing it and get comfortable with them all. THis will keep the surprises to a minimum when you get into the bigger planes and congested airports. Good luck and good question.

Oh by the way, I would NEVER leave the plane clean until I broke out, remember the KEY is to be stable on the approach, in fact if I knew that the approach would be to mins I would re-bug for a flaps 15 landing, just because throwing 30 in at 200 feet causes a huge baloon and I didn't like that, made things unstable, so I would just leave 15 in and when I broke out I landed, nothing else to do. Remember the key is STABLE!! Make it as easy and safe as possible when you get close to the ground, last thing you need to be doing at 200 feet is reaching around and moving your head around and changing the config of the plane, then you are just asking for it in my book. TAke care..

SD

 

[wingnutt]

im with SD on this one....than again that could open up the whole "do you use full flaps" debate again

 

[metrodriver]

In the Lance I think you should drop the gear and approach flaps at the FAF. This will give you an almost 500fpm descent without having to touch the throttle. Go to full flaps when you break out. This technique is also being used at Ameriflight in the Lance and they have been doing this with aircraft that have collected some 20.000 hrs since they were bought new.
Same procedure was used in the metro.
In a low wing plane bringing the flaps to approach gives the plane a little bit of a nosedown attitude, which is perfect for an approach. A high wing plane like a cessna makes the plane pitch up when applying flaps and that requires a lot of nose down trim, what you have to take out when flaring for landing. This was especially difficult when flying a high speed approach. For this kind of plane I preferred a non-flap approach and pull the power almost off when about 200' above the runway and then start adding flaps. You will still land in the touchdown zone and you avoid a lot of trim changes.
On the 727 we went gear down and 25 flaps at one dot below g/s intercept, full flaps (30) at g/s intercept. I think this has more to do with momemtum than anything else. In a jet you want to have all this drag hanging out so the engines are already spooled up quite a bit in case of a missed approach or other situation requiring a lot of power (windshear).

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

When I flew freight in the C210 the standard procedure was to intercept the localizer with partial flaps and then gear down at the FAF flying in at 120 knots. When we broke out then we'd put in full flaps. You had to put a lot of forward elevator pressure and pull the throttle to maintain glideslope but it worked. When I flew for another company in the Chieftain it was the similar, flaps 15 on localizer intercept and gear down at FAF. But we'd just land with the 15 degrees of flaps instead of full flaps. It worked fine. In the CRJ we are fully configured before FAF with the gear down and flaps at 45. If you are single engine in the CRJ it's flaps 20 and gear down by FAF and fly that all the way to touchdown.

 

[SDdriver]

Metro,

I am just curious if you were 200ft off of the runway why would you start adding all the flaps? Why not just land?
It is one thing to do that in a non transport aircraft, but not something you want to do when flying something that you are calcualting Reff, but I am sure you know that.

It always kinda amazes me that so many companies want you to add full flaps when you break out, I mean how long to TD when you break out of a mins app. Maybe 2 or 3 sec, why add anything, just land. All it does is make you have to trim really fast or add forward or back preausre depending on the wing location High or Low, why make it hard on yourself, just land as configured. You know, in things like a lance and small aircraft like that, flaps arn't even needed. It has always amazed me at how so many people get so caught up in the use of them, like they can't land without full flaps. We would do no flappers in the Shorts all the time. Kinda fast approach, but it was a nice way to imagine you were in a 747, nose high all the way down..kinda cool. I didn't really like them, they were kinda flat approaches, but i LOVED the 15deg, landings, it was so much more easy and stable at that setting, just find what works best for you and do it.

I am not implying that what you were saying was wrong Metro, just curious why you would add flaps at that time when on a non flap approach.

SD

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

I don't know about the Lance but in the C210 I think the reasoning was to add drag to help slow you down from the 120 knot approach speed. If you landed fast with no flaps you'd float float float and if you touched down fast you'd bounce bounce bounce. We were Part 135 so we had to get down in the first 3000 feet or first third of the runway, whichever was less.

 

[metrodriver]

adding the flaps in the 172 (20 or maybe 30 degrees) makes you slow down a bit faster and decreases the risk of landing nosewheel first because of higher speed and nosedown trim. Also quite a few people will scrape the tail in a 172 when landing no flaps. So pulling the power at 200', adding 10 flaps at 85, 20 at 75 and maybe 30 at 65 will bring you down to the touchdown zone in a easy way, almost like making an engine-out landing. If you flew the approach at 90 you want to keep a little bit of power (1000- 1200 rpm), but if you approached at 120 (for faster traffic behind you) idle will work fine, and the lower speed because of the flaps reduce the groundroll, important with that faster traffic behind you. The amount of trimchanche is relatively small, pulling of the power causes a pitch down moment, but adding flaps compensates for it. You still need to trim up a little, but nothing like when adding flaps over the FAF.
I taught for 4 years, and these procedures seemed to work best. The examiner who did most of my student's checkrides had about 55000 hrs (no kidding) and approved of doing things this way ( actually told me this was the way he wanted to see it).
ps. In the metro we also went full flaps at 200'

 

[midlifeflyer]

Also quite a few people will scrape the tail in a 172 when landing no flaps.

They should learn how to land.

 

[ibaflyer]

Thanks for all of the information. I guess it is all in what you have been trained to do but all of you have given me some food for thought.

By the way, my new avatar is my girlfriend.....a.. er.. I mean my wife. Yea, that is it.......she is my wife!

You may know her... her first name is Anna.

 

[metrodriver]

ibaflyer, that new euhh wife of yours, does she also know you're her new husband?

 

[Paladin]

I wonder how many of y'all just spent the past 10 seconds trying to see up her skirt...

 

[JHook]

Not that I know what I am talking about (being that I don't own a pilot certificate), but gear down at 10 miles works well for me. I am looking to be fully configured and at approach AOA when crossing the FAF.