Flown the "Widow Maker" at Roswell N.M.?

[Otto]

Just curious if any other C-130 guys have successfully flown the HI-ILS at Roswell, N.M. (KROW), aka. the "widow maker". I tried it today (clear and a million VMC) and COULD NOT get down in time. It requires descending 7,000 ft in 5 miles...we starting fully configured with 100% flaps at threshold speed and still could not get down to the 8000 ft or below by the arc. I figured we would need at least 3,500 on the VVI to make it down but the most we could get before hitting the max 100 flaps speed of 145 knots was 2,500 VVI. If you've done it...tell me how! I know it seems strange asking about a particular approach but to anyone who has flown this...you know what I'm talking about!

 

[T-38 IP]

Widow Maker

I've flown it twice with student pilots in a T-38. Its a challenge in the Talon but we can get the VVI required much easier.

 

[pilot141]

I've flown it as a student in the 38, way back when. I seem to remember that the FBO had a sign-up sheet in the office. You could sign your name, date, berate your buddies, etc.

Seems like a Herc could make the descent with those big props acting as brakes, but I guess I haven't looked at the approach since 91 or so.

If you full stop there, see if the FBO still has the old sign-up sheets!

 

[Shooter38]

I flew it for the first time as a student in 93 as well, and several times as an IP, but unfortuneatly the FBO got a new manager a couple of years back and he thought the lists looked messy...

Hence, he trashed them! Last I checked in 00, they dated back to the 80's....so much for heritage.

 

[t1apilot]

OH YEAH

Never flew the herk, but I will give you my $0.02 worth as a T-1 IP.
After trying this approach with students several times in the last couple of years I found the key for the T-1. One thing to remember about the T-1 is that it doesn't want to slow down or get down in a hurry. So I would have the studs get to a slow speed (approx 150) above Vref for a clean airplane. When they hit the DME where they could start down, Boards and Idle immediately with 10° NL and let it accelerate to 250. Worked everytime, as long as they weren't candy a** about being aggressive right off
Not sure the Herk can go that fast , but maybe it will work.
T1Apilot

 

[ck130]

Hey Otto,

I've never seen the approach your talking about, but try flying it clean. Push the nose over and decend at 250 KIAS or better. With all the power off you should get better than 4000 ft/min on the VVI. Just don't forget to slow below 250 when passing through 10K altitude. Give it a try, it should work out for you.

Fly Safe
ck130

 

[LearLove]

JUST SPIN IT

Grasshopper say: "pilot with much altitude to loose in short distance need new "spin" on descending"

Just slow that herc on down keep it clean and kick the rudder of your choice, you'll get down in time. You could also try a "falling leaf" stall that may work as well.


Happy Flying, I mean spinning

Guard Baby all the way is the only way

 

[MarineKC130]

Herc Hi Approaches

I haven't flown that one, but from flying others I'd suggest you keep clean and slow to 150 kts or less approaching the descent point, then nose over until you get up to 250 kts. If you are agressive about it, you'll have a really good rate of descent and be able to get the gear and flaps on speed as you level off at the bottom. The key is to starting it very slow so you have room to accelerate with a very steep descent. Good luck next time.

 

[TankerPuke]

OTTO-

Did it in the T1 the exact same way t1apilot descibed it and the theory from MarineKN30 about the C130 doing it in a similar way sounds logical and I bet it would work. Any way you cut it - it is fun!

PUKE

Guard Baby here too

 

[pilot141]

Otto - (or anyone else who still cares about this thread!)

Flew the widowmaker on Monday in a T-1 (showed up on Monday at 0530 after 5 weeks out of the jet for a copilot ride - students said "Sir we're going to have you demo the widowmaker"....Great!) Is this in my contract?

Anyway, I started the descent at 180, went idle and boards, accelerated to 250 in the descent and made the 8000 ft restriction with time to spare, even though we had a 40-knot tailwind.

I think the problem might be in where the 8000 ft restriction is. The way I read it, you do NOT have to be at 8000 ft by the time you are on the 16 DME arc, but by the time you cross the (I forget - 020, 034, something) radial. You start the descent, turn to intercept the arc, and still have a few miles of arcing before the 8000 ft restriction.

Way too much detail, I know, but this may explain why a Herc with four huge fans couldn't make the descent.

Any AIS guys want to chime in?

 

[Otto]

Hey guys...
Thanks for all the great responses! I'm chomping at the bit to get back out there and try this approach clean instead of configured. I may have been beaten once but I shall prevail in the end! Pilot141...this is all from memory but the way we read it, you have to be at or below 8,000 ft by the time you are established on the arc. The profile is confusing but there was some discussion on it in the cockpit well before the approach and we all agreed on this. Which brings me to the next question...why the heck is the 8,000 ft restriction there in the first place??? It seems to serve no purpose. Perhaps some terps guy getting his kicks!