Fighter flight times for Airlines

[STLCFII]

Heard something today that I didn't believe and I want to get clarification on. Someone told me that the Airlines take one Fighter flight hour as being worth like 2 to 5 hours. Seems kind of odd but is there any truth to that? Thanks!

Brian

 

[stillaboo]

5 is a bit much, but some airlines allow military pilots to multiply their times by a certain amount so the hiring board will have an easier comparison b/t military and civilian.

It's not just fighter pilots, and it's not b/c military pilots are better or anything necessarily, but b/c they don't fly with as much frequency as their civilian competion who doesn't have to ever fly a desk for part of their flying career. It has been found that, despite the lack of hours, these pilots tend to show as much flying skill as their civilian counterparts and exibit similar levels of quality in their decision making process.

Military flying isn't really like civilian flying, but, nevertheless, 2000 hours in an F-14 isn't like 2000 hours in a 172. It's alot more like 2000 hours in an RJ in terms of airline quality, heavy multi turbojet/turbofan ops.

-Boo!

 

[Zulu]

Back when United was hiring (ancient history in these times), there was a rumor out there that they would multiply fighter time by some factor to equal "heavy" time. I heard a bunch of different numbers thrown out there, but nothing ever substantiated. It's all really OBE now since UAL won't be hiring for a while.
Otherwise, when hiring was in full swing with everybody, it seemed that 1200-1500 jet PIC was what it took to be competative at a major. Fighter guys tended to get hired with fewer hours (but a similar number of years) than heavy drivers since they log jet PIC from day one. Seemed like the same thing for pure civilian pilots -- it took more hours to get that magic jet PIC time, but once they were around 1500, they were in the hunt.
Of course, that was then. Now.........????

Good luck,

Z

 

[AlbieF15]

I'm convinced turbojet PIC is the magic number.

As Zulu said...go fly an F15, F16, A10, F14 or F18, and you are logging PIC pretty much from the get go.

Go fly a KC135 or C5, and you will be a copilot for several years, gaining about 1000-2000 (best guess) total time as SIC. Next comes your AC upgrade, and voila...now your PIC clock starts.

As a civilian....get a CFI, then an MEI, fly right seat on a citation, etc until you grab that regional job. How many regional right seaters get hired? I don't think very many... However, get a year or two in the LEFT seat (PIC turbine, again...) and you are in the hunt.

So..what's the best way to gain that 1000-2000 PIC? I guess it depends on your preference, some luck and timing, and the hiring tempo at the airlines.

 

[HueyPilot2]

PIC time in the USAF

If you don't fly fighters, heavies require 1200 hours SIC before you can upgrade to PIC in the USAF. Nowadays that takes about 2-3 years.

Best way to get around that....fly C-21s out of pilot training. You upgrade to AC at the 400 hour point (takes about a year), then when you transition to your follow-on MWS airframe, you go through the PIC training, fly for a short period of time in the right seat, then hop over to the left.

For example, when I leave here (my first USAF assignment), I'll have about 1000 C-21 hours, of which about 500-600 will be either AC or IP hours. When I go to C-130s, I'll go through as an AC, fly the Herk in the right seat for 300 hours, then start flying as an AC.

 

[vschip]

5 is a bit much, but some airlines allow military pilots to multiply their times by a certain amount so the hiring board will have an easier comparison b/t military and civilian.

It's not just fighter pilots, and it's not b/c military pilots are better or anything necessarily, but b/c they don't fly with as much frequency as their civilian competion who doesn't have to ever fly a desk for part of their flying career. It has been found that, despite the lack of hours, these pilots tend to show as much flying skill as their civilian counterparts and exibit similar levels of quality in their decision making process.



The way it was told to me, the conversion is because military guys log actual flight time, from wheels up to landing, while civilian guys log block time(parking brake off to parking brake on). Could be wrong, have been many times before...

 

[MercuryPilot]

The civilian block time answer mentioned above is probably the real reason the military get a multiplier. We log takeoff time to land time NOT engine start to shutdown.

JetBlue currently advises military applicants to multiply their hours by 1.3 for the conversion.

The FEDEX FAQ page advises military applicants to add .2 hours to every flight/logbook entry for the conversion.

You probably want to check w/each company individually before sending in a resume to make sure you are submitting the correct information.

I honestly don't think the military conversions are because of better quality flight time but rather for the way we log it. The type of a/c you log your flight time in will speak for itself in the long run.

R,
MP

 

[jaxgus]

Have you ever led a division of F-14's?

[Military flying isn't really like civilian flying, but, nevertheless, 2000 hours in an F-14 isn't like 2000 hours in a 172. It's alot more like 2000 hours in an RJ in terms of airline quality, heavy multi turbojet/turbofan ops.

-Boo! [/B]

I can't tell from your profile, but the comment above leads me to believe you haven't experienced military flying. 2000 hours in a TOMCAT doesn't equate to 2000 hours in a RJ.

When a pilot accumulates 2000 hours in an F-14 this isn't done flying by himself. He is responsible for executing complex missions with specific objectives; typically protecting the lives of thousands of US military personnel on the ground and sea; much like an airline Captain protecting the lives of 100's of his passengers.

To accomplish this mission he spends multiple hours, if not days, planning how to meet the mission objectives blending the capabilities of multiple ground, sea and airborne platforms. Airbrone he is responsible, i.e. acting as the Captain on an airliner, these assets to include directly leading 4xF-14's. Additionally, he is directly responsible to overcome the unexpeted contingencies which will occur during warfare, for example aircraft breaking, controlling agencies losing their radars, weather in the target area and the enemy doing things we can't predict.

These experiences create great team building and CRM skills, and expose very young aviators to extremely demanding aerial situations. I was leading multiple aircraft packages when I 24 years of age, tough to be an RJ Captain at this age knowing we are not eligible for an ATP until 23, although it can be done.

The skills we bring to commercial avaition are our CRM, team building, instrument and mental flexibility skills. Maybe this is the reason commercial airlines have policies to adjust the flight times of an applicant. I will leave this in your court, but the experiences gained by a military aviator are very different than those flying an RJ.

 

[JimNtexas]

I couldn't possiblity come up with some kind of algerbric formula that inputs fighter time and outputs "normalized" civil time.

I can suggest a semi-quantitative method for comparing the two types of flying.

Make a list the list of piloting tasks per flight hour that a fighter pilot must accomplish and compare that list to the tasks an airline pilot must accomplish per hour of part 121 flying.

I think you would find the following:

1) The fighter pilot accomplishs about 90% of the same tasks as the airline pilot in a typical hour of flying.

2) The flighter pilot takes off and lands more often per hour. The 121 pilot may fly more IMC per hour, depending on where the fighter pilot did his or here flying.

3) The fighter pilot accompishs between 10 and 20 demanding tasks per hour that are just not done by the 121 pilot. These include rejoins, formation flight in VMC and IMC, intercepts, weapons delivery, precise timing exercises, air-to-air refueling, low level high speed flight, simulated air-to-air combat ( we don't see much of the real thing any more), use of secure communications equipment, use of air-to-air radar, multi-aircraft CRM, overhead breaks, high AOA manuvering.

I'm not even including silly things like landing on boats.

If I were hiring a pilot, I would place a greater value on an hour of military flying in general and fighter flying in particular than on an hour of part 121 flying.

Your milage may vary.

 

[stillaboo]

Whoa!

The 172 vs. RJ comment was meant to imply that Military flying, particularly fighter ops, is high quality time that is quite relevant to airline ops (not like 172 flying, but like RJ flying)

I'd value it, on an hour by hour basis, as the best time out there (particularly those puffball night traps). My comments regarding the 172 vs. RJ were made to a CFII to only show that military ops are closer to RJ quality then 172 quality - if you guys think your missions more closely resemble 172 flying quality than RJ flying quality, then, well, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Of course, the whole quality comment is pointless anyway, since the thread has already shown the error of my post. While military time is quality, and military guys do log less time (wheels up or not), the time multiplier is to bring your time up to reflect the way you log time, not to reflect the overall lack of hours you will inherently have comeing from the military.

I've never met a pilot who poo-poos military ops(particularly fighter ops), so I certainly don't want to be branded as the first one! What kind of idiot do you think I am?

-Boo!

 

[AlbieF15]

Jaxgus,

First...we need to take it easy on Boo! I'll put up with a lot just to see him posting so we can check out his avatar.

Second--I think most fighter guys will back me up on this.....rollling out of a high G turn, uncaging a heater on a cluto bandit while I time out a radar missle on his flight lead, keeping tally 2 while I keep one eye on my student wingman...does keep you very busy.

However...the true test of fighter pilot acumen and dexterity is unzipping the sidewise zipper on a poopy suit, while your teeth are floating you have to pee so bad, after flying 4 hours halfway across the pond, then finding and opening your lower flightsuit vertical zipper, and then managing to unwrap, open, and use a piddle pack without needing a roll of Bounty paper towels to clean up the mess and losing every cool point you ever accumulated. At least, unlike Jim'N'Texas's Vaark experience, when we have to use one there isn't another dude two feet away to cause consternation and "stage fright".

 

[HueyPilot2]

Military is just different

Even flying a Herk isn't the same as flying an RJ (or ATR). I don't know of too many 121 pilots that fly low-level formation using NVGs and dropping their pax onto a DZ, nor do any of them perform blacked-out assault landings onto a 3,000 foot dirt airstrip.

Military flying, for the most part, is pretty demanding. Even the helicopter missions (minus civilian police jobs) are different. A commercial helo guy will never fly NOE low-level missions at night in formation, nor will they ever have to engage targets, call for fire, or try to keep position as Chalk 3 in a formation of 5 landing in a tight LZ at night.

Not to take away from any civilian pilot, all flying to me can be challenging in some way or another. But military pilots have a much more expanded mission than just going from point A to point B, even the airlifters.

My job (flying C-21s) is about as close to 121 flying as it gets in the military world, and even we do things different from our civilian counterparts.

Most airlines that I know of give military pilots in general a multiplier to make up for the time we don't log (ie taxi time), and some airlines give single-seat fighter aircraft even more comp time simply because there is no equal in the civilian world.

 

[stillaboo]

Mavrick, Goose, come in here!

If you guys need to brag anymore about how hard it is to fly your fancy pantsy aircraft at mach 50 while single handedly taking out 50 bogies with only your manhood, I'll be happy to post some more vague dribble that you guys can shoot down . . . I mean pickle!

Let me guess, the plaque for the alternates is in the cockpit of an RJ, right?

I'm just communicating . . . keeping up foreign relations. You know, giving you all the finger?

Oh jeeze, I crack myself up.

-Boo!

(If any of you take any of this seriously, first please slowly take your finger off the trigger and seek out your CO)