FAR 117 hiring.

[NEDude]

I doubt you'll see the 117 rules remain for more than a week in their present form once the industry sees how unworkable they will be in practice.

Delaying a flight because of a phone call? What about the CA who is a commuter trying to get back to catch his flight home, but the FO can't get to sleep because of construction and delays the flight? Guys will be at each other's throats. The number of flights returning to the gate due to relatively minor mechanicals and then cancelling due to projected flight time exceedances will make schedules massively unreliable.

We should have fixed the fatigue issue with something that worked case-by-case and protected the individual pilot rather than slapping together something that causes more problems than it fixes.

I agree that the rules will cause a lot of headaches in the first 5-6 months of implementation - perhaps significantly longer. However I do not think there will be quick or easy change coming to the new regs. The FAA has staunchly stood its ground on this reg despite massive industry lobbying. I think the FAA's response to the headaches will be along the lines of 'deal with it because it is now part of the cost of doing business'.

I also think all of the airlines are greatly underestimating the staffing requirements this reg will require. The computer models can look at the flight and duty time requirements and come up with a staffing model to meet the planned schedule. What they cannot predict are the increased variables that come with the new legal requirement that flight crews self certify their fitness for flight prior to each leg. We have all been stuck in those hotels that have had the wild late night wedding parties, or the large groups of teenagers who run around the hotels at all hours of the night, or been stuck next to the elevator, or had to wait an hour or longer for the hotel shuttle, etc. How many crews who have just sucked it up in the past will now report fatigued because of the new self certification requirement (yes I know in theory we have had to do that all along, but now there is a hard paper trail with a signature involved). Those are the variables the computer programs cannot predict.

 

[kf4amu]

At regionals, the days will be shorter but you'll just have to work more days to get the block time for the month.

 

[NEDude]

At regionals, the days will be shorter but you'll just have to work more days to get the block time for the month.

I think it will be that way at all of the airlines, not just regionals.

 

[bri5150]

NEDude, that is my point. I would have figured everyone would be hiring big time right now. VX is adding 6%ish to their list. I understand Delta and SWA are probably fat already, but a company the size of United should need another 600 pilots with that percentage. Why is that not happening?

 

[Flyer1015]

I doubt you'll see the 117 rules remain for more than a week in their present form once the industry sees how unworkable they will be in practice.

It's already a FAR. Any major change to a FAR takes a long time, I doubt you will see changes to rest rules because they "seem" unworkable.

Delaying a flight because of a phone call?

Please explain this example? What delay?

What about the CA who is a commuter trying to get back to catch his flight home, but the FO can't get to sleep because of construction and delays the flight? Guys will be at each other's throats.

What? You get 10 hrs of rest with "a chance for 8 hrs uninterrupted sleep." My airline has already defined the 8 hrs uninterrupted sleep as calculated from debrief to report, minus roundtrip transportation as defined in city data for each hotel. Other airlines are most likely going to adopt a similar definition. This doesn't mean just because you heard cars honking at 4am that now you can call to restart your 8 hrs! Regardless, you get 10 hrs rest and the next day you will have to sign a paper that says you are fit to fly. If you are NOT fit to fly, then you must refuse to sign and will be removed from the flight. Then you will have to have a talk with the CP.

The number of flights returning to the gate due to relatively minor mechanicals and then cancelling due to projected flight time exceedances will make schedules massively unreliable.

....not if you have proper reserve coverage. FDPs can be extended by 2 hrs due to unforeseen circumstances before takeoff. But the block time for the day (either 8 or 9 hrs depending on when you report) is a hard limit that is updated after every flight.

We should have fixed the fatigue issue with something that worked case-by-case and protected the individual pilot rather than slapping together something that causes more problems than it fixes.

What? For the first time in decades we have the FAA changing rest rules (and for the better) and pilots still complain. Oh well, that's not too surprising. The majors aren't going to be affected by this as much as the regionals. There were many days at my last airline I did 5 leg 13:30 days. Now, those will be illegal. 10 hr rest required. I used to have pairings with scheduled reduced rest of 8 hrs! Those will be gone. These changes are for the better, and the airlines have to deal with complying with them.

 

[Flyer1015]

I think it will be that way at all of the airlines, not just regionals.

Mostly regionals. The scope of our airline is mostly transcons where the average block/day is still 5.5 to 6.5 hrs.

 

[labbats]

....not if you have proper reserve coverage. FDPs can be extended by 2 hrs due to unforeseen circumstances before takeoff. But the block time for the day (either 8 or 9 hrs depending on when you report) is a hard limit that is updated after every flight.

I thought that 2 hour extension was only for reserves, not lineholders. Maybe that is what you are saying with FDP. I've never heard that term before.

 

[Vegaspilot99]

I thought that 2 hour extension was only for reserves, not lineholders. Maybe that is what you are saying with FDP. I've never heard that term before.

From everything I've seen and talking to the two guys working on 117 here, the 2 hr extension is for the Flight Duty Period...whether line holder or reserve. The 30 min extension can be used more than once. The 2 hr extension can only be used once until you receive the required 30hrs off in 7. In either case the CA must agree to the extension, its not a given that the company can just use it.

I thought the reserve rules would be better than they are. In many cases reserves can still do a full 16 hr duty day. For reserves you have to look at the FDP start time/# of legs to determine your FDP limit. Then add 4 hrs to that. Then figure which is more restrictive, your total duty end time (FDP+4) or the actual FDP. It's kinda confusing.

 

[fam62c]

At least the concept of "reduced rest" seems to be gone, I always thought that was the dumbest thing ever. They could have just kept everything as it was except make all the limits hard limits rather than scheduling limits and made the minimum rest period 10 hours with no exceptions. To me it makes no sense to make rules for safety reasons and then allow exceptions to those rules. If a rule is made to insure safety it automatically implies that an exception to that rule could result in an unsafe situation. Reducing rest to 8 hours with "rest" defined as release to report......that was just ridiculous. We will just have to see how the new rules work out in practice and what some operators will do to get around the intent of the rules.

 

[Twisted Mind]

If the scheduled days off drop dramatically due to this rule change, how many pilots will leave the industry? How will that affect the industry. I can't imagine a lot of people will want to spend a career commuting to a 13 day off line for crappy regional pay.