Falcon 50EX Engine Failure at V1 Scenario

[LegacyDriver]

This is one that I have always thought would be the ultimate "Oh Shiite!" moment but maybe I haven't considered it enough.

- Max Weight Takeoff Slats + 20 with a Balanced Field
- Airplane hits a flock of geese at V1 and blows two engines out (you pick 'em as it doesn't matter to me)

From what I am repeatedly told there is absolutely no way the airplane will take you any further than the crash site under these conditions.

Is this true? If it isn't true what do you do?

Worse, if it *IS* true, what would you do?

Do you try to accelerate and clean up in ground effect on one engine or clamp on the brakes and dribble off the end at a pretty good clip?

The two-engines-inop go-around requires you make the decision at 1500' or 1000' AGL (I forgot already, sorry--brain dumping Falcon info as fast as I can and replacing it with Legacy knowledge--yeah baby!) so it seems to me there's no way to make this scenario work.

I'd love to hear from the 50 experts on this one.

 

[LR45JI]

Just for giggles:

Lets say your flying a $hit-hot Legacy at Max Gross weight on a BF.....and you hit a flock of whatever and blows both engines....what you going to do?

In either case (50 or Legacy) the end result will be a fast deceleration - do you want that closer to the airport or farther?

Technically if it's at V1 and you’re on a BFL you should be able to stop before the end........good luck!!

It's really an imperical question: You will react 3-5 seconds after you know all your options.....which leaves you about 5-7 seconds before you start to leave the runway......if you think your going to start thinking about cleaning up.....blah.....blah.....blah.....it's a joke. Your already on the worse side of the power-cure. The whole reason the 50 checklist has you make the decision 1000AGL is so you can clean-up and accelerate GOING DOWNHILL....if you think this joker is going to fly trying to take-off........


YOU ARE COMING TO REST OFF THE AIRPORT.....PRAY THAT YOU AND YOUR PASSENGERS LIVE.

 

[Fly91]

This is one that I have always thought would be the ultimate "Oh Shiite!" moment but maybe I haven't considered it enough.

- Max Weight Takeoff Slats + 20 with a Balanced Field
- Airplane hits a flock of geese at V1 and blows two engines out (you pick 'em as it doesn't matter to me)

From what I am repeatedly told there is absolutely no way the airplane will take you any further than the crash site under these conditions.

Is this true? If it isn't true what do you do?

Worse, if it *IS* true, what would you do?

Do you try to accelerate and clean up in ground effect on one engine or clamp on the brakes and dribble off the end at a pretty good clip?

The two-engines-inop go-around requires you make the decision at 1500' or 1000' AGL (I forgot already, sorry--brain dumping Falcon info as fast as I can and replacing it with Legacy knowledge--yeah baby!) so it seems to me there's no way to make this scenario work.

I'd love to hear from the 50 experts on this one.

Crazy to go flying with that scenario.

Your chances staying on the ground, in control and braking, and going off the end are MUCH better than going off the end with an out of control plane that has some altitude and is MOST certainly coming back to the ground very soon. At least keeping it on the ground can most likely keep you in the airport boundaries, instead of hitting houses or other structures after trying to struggle with it for 10 seconds.

My take-off briefing for years has always been, "before V1 all the major stuff (engine failure, fire, unrecoverable loss of directional control, T/R deployment or obstruction on the runway), we stop.

BUT............

"after V1 we'll keep it on the ground if I decide the plane will not fly"

Sometimes co-pilots have looked at me like, "WHAT?"

Have to explain odds to them. One impact is better than two impacts.

***I've never flown the F 50, but I have flown the B-747 for 820 hours and that was in almost everyones take-off briefing.***

 

[sleepy]

I did this in the sim taking off from JFK. I got airborne to about 25 feet AGL. It will stay there all day as long as you don't try to turn or change configurations. I suppose I could have eventually burned off enough gas to be able to return to the airport and land, as long as I did run into something first? Or I could have landed straight ahead on the 10,000 ft runway with room to spare, but I wanted to see what it would do.

With a Legacy, I guess I would have crashed into the bay?

 

[LegacyDriver]

I did this in the sim taking off from JFK. I got airborne to about 25 feet AGL. It will stay there all day as long as you don't try to turn or change configurations. I suppose I could have eventually burned off enough gas to be able to return to the airport and land, as long as I did run into something first? Or I could have landed straight ahead on the 10,000 ft runway with room to spare, but I wanted to see what it would do.

With a Legacy, I guess I would have crashed into the bay?

Obviously in a twin you're dead. I just wondered if having that third motor would do anything other than keep you alive a little bit longer before crashing.

Also, how long until you melt the engine at max power? At some point you have to retard that thrust lever even at 25 feet. How much fuel will you have burned by then and would it be enough?

In a Legacy my decision is made for me. I try to stop.

That third engine leaves you with something to decide though and by the time you realize you've lost two you may have committed to a takeoff... Bad scenario.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Just for giggles:

Lets say your flying a $hit-hot Legacy at Max Gross weight on a BF.....and you hit a flock of whatever and blows both engines....what you going to do?

That's the beauty of a twin--your decision is already made for you. Having that third engine can complicate things if you act thinking you've only lost one engine, rotate, and try to fly the V1 Engine Failure Profile without realizing you've really lost two engines...

 

[Fly91]

That's the beauty of a twin--your decision is already made for you. Having that third engine can complicate things if you act thinking you've only lost one engine, rotate, and try to fly the V1 Engine Failure Profile without realizing you've really lost two engines...

But if you only lose one engine the PNF will be watching the airspeed continue to increase. If you lose two engines the airspeed will immediately stop, then start to decrease.

I've done, for giggles, in the sim, lost two engines at MGTOW in the B747 and airspeed stops immediately and starts falling off in 1 second. If it ever were to happen in real life, you're gonna keep it on the ground no matter where you are in the take-off run, because it WILL NOT fly. Even if you just rotated, slam it back onto the remaining runway and hold on.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Who cares about melting the engine in this scenario?

 

[sleepy]

Obviously in a twin you're dead. I just wondered if having that third motor would do anything other than keep you alive a little bit longer before crashing.

Also, how long until you melt the engine at max power? At some point you have to retard that thrust lever even at 25 feet. How much fuel will you have burned by then and would it be enough?

In a Legacy my decision is made for me. I try to stop.

That third engine leaves you with something to decide though and by the time you realize you've lost two you may have committed to a takeoff... Bad scenario.

I dont really know what would have happened. I just asked to do it at the end of recurrent training to see what would happen. The aircraft was at max gross weight and I don't remember the temp. I was just happy to know that it would fly. I guess eventually you would hit something at that altitude before you got light enough to climb higher, turn or bring up the flaps?

 

[LegacyDriver]

Who cares about melting the engine in this scenario?

Well someone better. I don't think it is going to run indefinitely at max power and then you are coming down wherever you happen to be.

If you are over the water at JFK at 25' then maybe ditching is your best option or if you are out in Midland, TX (or someplace like that) find a field and belly it in.