FAA to scrutinize AA

[Skyboy722]

Why would we allow pilots in an aircraft if they could not make a minimums approach with no autopilot?????? I know some foreign carriers have 250 hr guys that are considered qualified but in the US we should not let this happen. Autopilot failure should never constitute an emergency. We in the past have been dispatched many times with autopilot inop. Now we need to change the rules because we are hiring underqualified pilots?

The sad part of it is, that 250 hour guy just may be more current and more proficient at hand flying those "autopilot inop" approaches than the guys who only do it on their checkride every six months or a year.

I can hand fly just fine and my backround has nothing to do with it Lear. I am talking about risk managment. IMC into a busy hub is not the best time to "practice". That is all I was saying. I agree that an airline pilot should be proficient at hand flying, it's part of our job.

Then when do you propose we "practice"? What does the amount of other traffic have to do with flying a heading, altitude, or airspeed? Or an approach? You'd prefer what- a quieter frequency, so you can concentrate? I am also talking about risk management, and I'm saying that IMC into who-cares-where is exactly when you should be "practicing" your hand flying.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Busy hub (Class B) IMC is probably the SAFEST place to "practice." I'd add that you ought to be able to manage all regimes of flight with raw data. Don't practice, DO. If you can't DO, you shouldn't be flying the line.

 

[Lear70]

I can hand fly just fine and my backround has nothing to do with it Lear. I am talking about risk managment. IMC into a busy hub is not the best time to "practice". That is all I was saying. I agree that an airline pilot should be proficient at hand flying, it's part of our job.

I brought that up because background has EVERYTHING to do with it.

The IMC skills of a pilot who has been hand-flying single-pilot IFR in an old, beat-up Baron, then transitioned into a King Air or Lear where the approach mode on the autopilot didn't work well to begin with (if at all inside the marker), calculating their own VDP/PDP's, crossing restrictions with speeds, etc, are 10 times BETTER than the average airline pilot.

The BEST PLACE to practice those skills, including no FD, is going into a busy hub in IMC. Calculate YOUR OWN crossing restrictions, YOUR OWN lead-in turns to intercept the localizer on a sharp, large-turn intercept, YOUR OWN basic instrument skills,,, all while you have a non-loaded-up PNF beside you monitoring WITH their instrumentation up to make sure your safety is maintained.

Otherwise, the only place you get to practice is in VMC (which isn't practice at all) or into a small airport where you're not busy, jammed into the approach and made to maintain speed when you weren't expecting it, forced to recalculate things on the fly, etc, etc.

THEN, when the shinola hits the fan, you're flying with a "child of the magenta" with an abnormal or an emergency (or the other pilot is incapacitated) with an MEL'd autopilot, with an approach down to 200 and 1/2 with gusty winds, heavy rain, and you NEED to make the approach, and you botch it with only enough fuel to try it again or divert to your alternate... with the abnormal or emergency.

No thanks. I will continue to hand-fly an approach into a busy hub in IMC at least once a week (weather allowing) to keep my skills sharp, work load and situation-allowing. I will continue to challenge my F/O's to do the same. The responses on this board all saying the same thing should be your first indication that maybe your approach to this idea needs re-evaluating.

'nuff said.

 

[Lear70]

it shouldn't be practice - it ought to be comfortable. Easy. That takes doing it. And right now there are too many carriers that don't encourage clicking everything off and many captains that will forbid it. That's not okay

it's not about chest thumping and definitely not about showing off. We need to create cockpit environments that encourage those who really need te practice the freedom to do it- w/o ego, but with pride in the work

bingo!

 

[inline]

If you cant hand fly in IMC you dont belong in the cockpit of an airplane. Its basic airmanship.

Look at your post. If you can't punctuate "cant, dont, and its" try your spell check. It's basic English.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

I can hand fly just fine and my backround has nothing to do with it Lear. I am talking about risk managment. IMC into a busy hub is not the best time to "practice". That is all I was saying. I agree that an airline pilot should be proficient at hand flying, it's part of our job.

PRACTICE, your talking about PRACTICE!

 

[contrail67]

I can hand fly just fine and my backround has nothing to do with it Lear. I am talking about risk managment. IMC into a busy hub is not the best time to "practice". That is all I was saying. I agree that an airline pilot should be proficient at hand flying, it's part of our job.

Most of us "practiced" when we were learning....it should be natural at this point.

 

[Lear70]

Most of us "practiced" when we were learning....it should be natural at this point.

I guess we don't need checkrides every year, either, because it should be "natural at this point"...

Just playing devil's advocate with your post because, fact is, people fail recurrent checks all the time because they're NOT proficient. Proficiency has to be maintained, and we do that with "practice".

 

[OK3]

Military straight into SWA?

Lear, it seemed to me you were disparaging pilots who come from a military background. I am tired of the civ/mil arguments. We are all civilians now. Maybe that is not what you intended. I have read a lot of your posts and you seem like a good guy, so I'll leave it at that.

I did not explain my opinion very well in my first post of this thread because I was on my phone and it is hard to type.

We all agree that we should be proficient at hand flying the airplane. I just think it is better to gain that proficiency by hand flying in a lower workload environment. To me it is a risk management decision, not a "can I do it" decision. Each airline has a different view of automation, some strongly discourage or in certain conditions forbid hand flying, some require it in those same conditions. You guys write as if I am stupid to have the opinion I do. We can respectfully agree to disagree. In any case I do not think a lack of ability caused the incidents that started this thread. It could happen to any of us.

 

[contrail67]

I guess we don't need checkrides every year, either, because it should be "natural at this point"...

Just playing devil's advocate with your post because, fact is, people fail recurrent checks all the time because they're NOT proficient. Proficiency has to be maintained, and we do that with "practice".

Last time I checked, Proficency checkrides were to remain profecient on procedures that are not normal....ie: engine failure/fire procedures, ect. Pc's are not usually to train hand flying.

I have NEVER had a checkride in 15000 hours where the examiner said lets see your hand flying skills....except the requirement to do so on a single engine ILS marker inbound approach.