FAA to scrutinize AA

[Skyboy722]

Why would we allow pilots in an aircraft if they could not make a minimums approach with no autopilot?????? I know some foreign carriers have 250 hr guys that are considered qualified but in the US we should not let this happen. Autopilot failure should never constitute an emergency. We in the past have been dispatched many times with autopilot inop. Now we need to change the rules because we are hiring underqualified pilots?

The sad part of it is, that 250 hour guy just may be more current and more proficient at hand flying those "autopilot inop" approaches than the guys who only do it on their checkride every six months or a year.

I can hand fly just fine and my backround has nothing to do with it Lear. I am talking about risk managment. IMC into a busy hub is not the best time to "practice". That is all I was saying. I agree that an airline pilot should be proficient at hand flying, it's part of our job.

Then when do you propose we "practice"? What does the amount of other traffic have to do with flying a heading, altitude, or airspeed? Or an approach? You'd prefer what- a quieter frequency, so you can concentrate? I am also talking about risk management, and I'm saying that IMC into who-cares-where is exactly when you should be "practicing" your hand flying.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Busy hub (Class B) IMC is probably the SAFEST place to "practice." I'd add that you ought to be able to manage all regimes of flight with raw data. Don't practice, DO. If you can't DO, you shouldn't be flying the line.

 

[Lear70]

I can hand fly just fine and my backround has nothing to do with it Lear. I am talking about risk managment. IMC into a busy hub is not the best time to "practice". That is all I was saying. I agree that an airline pilot should be proficient at hand flying, it's part of our job.

I brought that up because background has EVERYTHING to do with it.

The IMC skills of a pilot who has been hand-flying single-pilot IFR in an old, beat-up Baron, then transitioned into a King Air or Lear where the approach mode on the autopilot didn't work well to begin with (if at all inside the marker), calculating their own VDP/PDP's, crossing restrictions with speeds, etc, are 10 times BETTER than the average airline pilot.

The BEST PLACE to practice those skills, including no FD, is going into a busy hub in IMC. Calculate YOUR OWN crossing restrictions, YOUR OWN lead-in turns to intercept the localizer on a sharp, large-turn intercept, YOUR OWN basic instrument skills,,, all while you have a non-loaded-up PNF beside you monitoring WITH their instrumentation up to make sure your safety is maintained.

Otherwise, the only place you get to practice is in VMC (which isn't practice at all) or into a small airport where you're not busy, jammed into the approach and made to maintain speed when you weren't expecting it, forced to recalculate things on the fly, etc, etc.

THEN, when the shinola hits the fan, you're flying with a "child of the magenta" with an abnormal or an emergency (or the other pilot is incapacitated) with an MEL'd autopilot, with an approach down to 200 and 1/2 with gusty winds, heavy rain, and you NEED to make the approach, and you botch it with only enough fuel to try it again or divert to your alternate... with the abnormal or emergency.

No thanks. I will continue to hand-fly an approach into a busy hub in IMC at least once a week (weather allowing) to keep my skills sharp, work load and situation-allowing. I will continue to challenge my F/O's to do the same. The responses on this board all saying the same thing should be your first indication that maybe your approach to this idea needs re-evaluating.

'nuff said.

 

[Lear70]

it shouldn't be practice - it ought to be comfortable. Easy. That takes doing it. And right now there are too many carriers that don't encourage clicking everything off and many captains that will forbid it. That's not okay

it's not about chest thumping and definitely not about showing off. We need to create cockpit environments that encourage those who really need te practice the freedom to do it- w/o ego, but with pride in the work

bingo!

 

[inline]

If you cant hand fly in IMC you dont belong in the cockpit of an airplane. Its basic airmanship.

Look at your post. If you can't punctuate "cant, dont, and its" try your spell check. It's basic English.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

I can hand fly just fine and my backround has nothing to do with it Lear. I am talking about risk managment. IMC into a busy hub is not the best time to "practice". That is all I was saying. I agree that an airline pilot should be proficient at hand flying, it's part of our job.

PRACTICE, your talking about PRACTICE!

 

[contrail67]

I can hand fly just fine and my backround has nothing to do with it Lear. I am talking about risk managment. IMC into a busy hub is not the best time to "practice". That is all I was saying. I agree that an airline pilot should be proficient at hand flying, it's part of our job.

Most of us "practiced" when we were learning....it should be natural at this point.

 

[Lear70]

Most of us "practiced" when we were learning....it should be natural at this point.

I guess we don't need checkrides every year, either, because it should be "natural at this point"...

Just playing devil's advocate with your post because, fact is, people fail recurrent checks all the time because they're NOT proficient. Proficiency has to be maintained, and we do that with "practice".

 

[OK3]

Military straight into SWA?

Lear, it seemed to me you were disparaging pilots who come from a military background. I am tired of the civ/mil arguments. We are all civilians now. Maybe that is not what you intended. I have read a lot of your posts and you seem like a good guy, so I'll leave it at that.

I did not explain my opinion very well in my first post of this thread because I was on my phone and it is hard to type.

We all agree that we should be proficient at hand flying the airplane. I just think it is better to gain that proficiency by hand flying in a lower workload environment. To me it is a risk management decision, not a "can I do it" decision. Each airline has a different view of automation, some strongly discourage or in certain conditions forbid hand flying, some require it in those same conditions. You guys write as if I am stupid to have the opinion I do. We can respectfully agree to disagree. In any case I do not think a lack of ability caused the incidents that started this thread. It could happen to any of us.

 

[contrail67]

I guess we don't need checkrides every year, either, because it should be "natural at this point"...

Just playing devil's advocate with your post because, fact is, people fail recurrent checks all the time because they're NOT proficient. Proficiency has to be maintained, and we do that with "practice".

Last time I checked, Proficency checkrides were to remain profecient on procedures that are not normal....ie: engine failure/fire procedures, ect. Pc's are not usually to train hand flying.

I have NEVER had a checkride in 15000 hours where the examiner said lets see your hand flying skills....except the requirement to do so on a single engine ILS marker inbound approach.

 

[waveflyer]

Last time I checked, Proficency checkrides were to remain profecient on procedures that are not normal....ie: engine failure/fire procedures, ect. Pc's are not usually to train hand flying.

I have NEVER had a checkride in 15000 hours where the examiner said lets see your hand flying skills....except the requirement to do so on a single engine ILS marker inbound approach.

FedEx had been starting that. Don't know about now.

Again- this is EXACTLY the attitude and environment that makes it unpopular to click off the automation. This idea that flying is ever natural is all ego. We are NOT robots. Flying is a proficiency- and if you never click off the electronic help, skills WILL erode no matter how talented and skilled you used to be.

We need to set the example and hand fly more- and create an environment where our fellow pilots are encouraged to - ESPECIALLY if they are NOT comfortable with their abilities at that point in time. It's not a critique on them as pilots- it's that everyone WILL lose proficiency and should be encouraged to get it back. Just like we ALL need to study and review things we should know.

 

[Lear70]

Military straight into SWA?

Lear, it seemed to me you were disparaging pilots who come from a military background. I am tired of the civ/mil arguments. We are all civilians now. Maybe that is not what you intended. I have read a lot of your posts and you seem like a good guy, so I'll leave it at that.

I did not explain my opinion very well in my first post of this thread because I was on my phone and it is hard to type.

Not disparaging, I've simply seen some ideas come out of military pilots that usually have to be straightened out on the line. What I've seen over the last 20 years is a tendency for military pilots to be very linear in their thinking and very procedure-oriented. This is not altogether BAD, it can actually HELP cockpit discipline, but some things the schoolhouse teaches are a really BAD idea.

The level of automation-dependence is one of those things, along with the reluctance to take it off to practice when the opportunity arises. It takes a while to get *SOME* (read, not all) military pilots out of that box and independently thinking and acting.

Sorry it came across as anti-military. I actually always WANTED to fly for the military, but broke my ankle snow skiing as a teenager and couldn't get a waiver for the pins I had, even after I had them removed. Such is life.

We all agree that we should be proficient at hand flying the airplane. I just think it is better to gain that proficiency by hand flying in a lower workload environment. To me it is a risk management decision, not a "can I do it" decision. Each airline has a different view of automation, some strongly discourage or in certain conditions forbid hand flying, some require it in those same conditions. You guys write as if I am stupid to have the opinion I do. We can respectfully agree to disagree. In any case I do not think a lack of ability caused the incidents that started this thread. It could happen to any of us.

I didn't mean to assert that you were stupid. Quite obviously, as an experienced military aviator and a major airline pilot, stupid isn't what most of us were likely going for (I know I wasn't). However, I will *NEVER*, *EVER* adhere to ANY airline's insistence on automation dependence. Pinnacle did it, AirTran did it, and I won't. Ever.

I'm a professional pilot. I know when to use appropriate levels of automation and when it's not as necessary and it would be a good opportunity to practice my hand-flying skills. The training people who tend to train to the lowest, common denominator and have been in the schoolhouse too long who are pushing that much focus on automation need to get back out on the line.

And I'm not that certain lack of hand-flying skills didn't play a part in this incident, and have in several others in the last couple years.

I have NEVER had a checkride in 15000 hours where the examiner said lets see your hand flying skills....except the requirement to do so on a single engine ILS marker inbound approach.

The examiner never HAS to say that. It's implied in the REQUIRED maneuvers that are performed by hand.

Remember steep turns? Stalls? Engine fire/failures after V1, and yes, the hand-flown single-engine ILS to minimums and a full-stop? Those ALL test your hand-flying skills, and I've watched pilots who have been in the left seat for YEARS fail a PC because they haven't been hand-flying the airplane enough and have a bad day.

Hand-flying, as wave-flyer and so many others have stated, is a skill. Just like any other. It has to be regularly practiced to remain proficient.