F-18 Question (Sort of)

[Groundpounder]

I was at an airshow this past weekend, and had a question. When you are doing a climb straight up in a twin engine fighter, what would happen if you have an engine failure? Would you be able to get the nose over and recover, or is your goose cooked?

Thanks, hope I don't look too dumb asking this.

 

[ekuflyer]

At that attitude you would pull not push to the nearest horizon then roll wings level. Nose high recovery.

 

[SIG600]

Ummm not always... you push to get the AOA off the jet and unload (lower the stall speed, accelerate quicker). Roll and pull in a situation like that, especially slow, and you can complicate things real quick. Roll and pull for a UA (if you're doing it by the book). No idea about the Hornet. I know the Tomcat (coming from a RIO in the B) is restricted from full blower t/o's for that reason, it'll VMC right away, take it for what it's worth.

 

[Fury220]

I guess we could get into a discussion about positive/negative dynamic stability...

...which would evolve into a discussion of the effects a flight control computer (like in the Viper) would have on such a recovery...

...but I'd rather a Hornet pilot just speak up and take this one (sts).

 

[SIG600]

Whats a T-38 "PIT?"?

(thread jack)

 

[psysicx]

Pilot Instructor Training

 

[Tora18]

As a Hornet Pilot by trade, the following more or less answers the original question, which, as stated, doesn't fully address all variables; The most important being airspeed at the time of a 100% vertical (nose position) engine failure.

Regardless, supposing the pilot maintained a reasonable airspeed while in the "verticle" (not slower 160-180 KIAS & configuration dependant), a pull to the horizon, not exceeding the AOA stall limit/max performance/lift limit of the wing (35 deg) is easily accomplished and will in most all cases comfortably return the aircraft to a safe attitude following an engine failure (I've only done it in a sim). From there on single engine operations are very easily managed. However, the slower the airspeed in the vertical, the more difficult it will become to maintain control of the nose, and precise control of AOA, and YAW will be crucial to avoiding uncontrolled flight. Although, the Hornet has very little adverse thrust problems, control issues can occur at high AOAs and low airspeeds; especially if yaw forces are introduced (induced, coupled or directed). Additionally, the Hornet has unique AOA feed back loops that (at slow airspeeds and high AOAs) attempt to keep the nose tracking toward the horizon or more specifically attempts to keep positive G on the aircraft. Attempts to "unload" the aircraft in these situations can aggrevate a slow speed, high AOA, nose high situation (work against/negate the flight control computers), and could actually promote out-of-control flight.

With regard to previous comments on unusual attitudes and recoveries, all is basically correct... Unloaded rolls to the nearest horizon, pulling through, etc. All is good, fundementally correct and should be trained to. However, it should be noted that the Hornet, and more so, the Super Hornet, are extremely manueverable aircraft with highly advanced flight control computers and each are highly proned to NOT depart controlled flight or to do so for very short and manageble periods of time. Each have simple out-of-controll proceedures that usually lead to "letting go" of everything, and pulling power to idle -- As with many aircraft, that ultimately solves most problems (altitude not withstanding).

Hope that helped. Bottomline, not a big problem in the Hornet or most other high performance fighters. However, recent MIG-29, and SU-27 demos have proven that disaster can result from engine failures and mismanaged airspeeds and altitudes.

Expect the unexpected and you won't be disappointed!

 

[fox3]

Depends on the altitude!

McDonnell Douglas (MacAir) makes great jets and normally nose high recoveries are not a problem, even if one loses a motor. Pulling to the nearest horizon is always a good idea and once the nose begins tracking past the vertical, finesse and patience is more important. The Hornet and the Eagle fly just fine on one motor, although one has degraded to the performance of a Viper (just kidding). I've never been a demo pilot, but from what I understand, the F-18 High angle, low altitude pass is a pretty much "edge-of-the-envelope" maneuver, and if a motor hiccups or quits, pulling the handle should be the first consideration.
Fox 3

 

[Lucky13]

The Hornet and the Eagle fly just fine on one motor, although one has degraded to the performance of a Viper (just kidding).

HA,HA!

 

[stonewall]

Ya know, I was flying with VX-9 a couple years ago as an AF OT pilot. When I brought up the Superhornet, one F-18 pilot's comment was "yeah, that's what you call it." Months later, as my block 50, GE-129 equipped, clean Viper pummeled a helpless Hornet pilot set after set, I saw what he meant. Ha!

 

[stonewall]

BTW, out of control recovery for the F-16CJ (GE motor):

1. Controls - Release
2. Throttle - Idle
3. MPO sw - Override and hold
4. Stick - Cycle in Phase

Step one will solve the problem (usually). It's tough to put a Viper out of control. Most guys will do it at least once, and many often don't even realize they ain't flying the jet anymore. The nose will usually drop and slice one way or another, and if you don't mess with it too much you'll be flying again shortly.

 

[Tora18]

Depends on the altitude!

Continue to concur with recovery techniques... Don't stop flying the airplane.

As far as the Hornet slow speed demo goes. It's not as close to the edge as you might think. Yes it's slow (120ish KIAS), but it's flown at 25 AOA. Cl Max for the F/A-18 A-D Hornet (Demo model is an A or C) is 35 AOA. Quick math would put that at about 95ish KIAS.

The 25 AOA pass allows for an acceptable safety margin, baring a catastophic engine failure (MIG-29, Paris Airshow?). Still, this can be recovered from with rapid and correct actions as altitude buffers tend to be more strictly adhered to at airshows these days. Anyone remember the USMC F/A-18 crash at the El-Toro airshow?

 

[Groundpounder]

Thanks to all for the replies.

 

[fox3]

I'm gonna have to frequent this board more often (instead of the Majors), almost forgot what it was like to talk about jets with pointy ends.

Magnum, I hear ya with regard to the Block 50 CJs -- very impressive jet -- lots o horsepower. Fought it a few times @ MO, but that was after I went to the dark side. Got spanked pretty bad 1v1(should I admit that?).

Tora, I'm pretty sure the Canadians did their High-AOA pass @ 35 alpha. It was very cool lookin'. The demo pilot was in my squadron, and he told me that after several Kokanees--I've never known a fighter pilot to lie after a few cool ones.

 

[Metro752]

deleted

 

[Tora18]

Canadian Demos

Fox-3,

Your right about the Canadian Demo, I forgot. Yes big gonads, but I'm sure all US demo pilots would do it too, if allowed. On the same note, the USN F-14 demo w/ a dirty roll off a touch and go is very impressive. First, time I saw It I was sure the pilot was going to mort.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Saw the Blue Angels about 3 years ago at Patrick AFB where one F18 looked like he had a problem but finished the show anyway.


They were doing a flap/gear/hook down flyby in the diamond formation sometime around the first quarter of the show. We were in a boat almost underneath the flyover when I figured something didn't look right. With a good look with the binocs, I believe it was the slot guy who had flaps/hook/nosegear but neither of the mains down. The main gear doors were closed too. I figured he'd be landing soon, but he cleaned up and completed an awesome show.
After the rest of them did the show landing at the end, then I saw one loitering out over the water for 10-15 minutes doing the 200-250 kt, about 5000' problem solving pattern. Unlike the rest, he eventually came in and landed into the wind, (unlike the others), with everything down including the hook. He didn't take a cable at the approach end and appeared to not have any other major problems.

Great show. T-Birds performed right afterwards. The Blue solos would cross low the sailboat masts at the base marina then disappear behind a line of 75' Australian Pines doing +500Kts.