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Experienced Folks...HELP!

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minitour

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 17, 2004
Posts
3,249
Just looking for some general input from the experienced group. I'd like to put myself in as good of a place as possible when it comes time to interview and start flying people instead of sitting in the right seat doing steep turns and chandelles, so I'm looking for any help you can give. Thanks!

Anyone have any feelings on ground instructor certificates? Do I need/want them? Will they help me in the future?

How about Tailwheel endorsement? It seems like fun, but is it something that will help? I've heard some airlines like it (but wasn't told which ones or why) but some couldn't care less.

High Altitude? High Performance?

Centerline Thrust? I'm getting the CMEL in a Duchess so will I be rated for Centerline also? Do I need to/want to be?

Seaplane(not sure if it has a practical purpose)? Helicopter (even though they scare me, I'm willing to try if it will help)? Glider?

I'd be looking to add on any of them to the Commercial Single and Multi. Would I be able to find a paying job for any/all of them?

Dispatcher? What does the practical test consist of? What does a dispatcher do?

FE? What exactly is a FE? What does he/she do? I know nothing about this one...

I just found out that I'm elegible for more money on my loan, so I'm thinking of getting the MEI while I'm at it...also in a Duchess...opinions? *since I'll have the CFI-IA, will I have to take another practical in the right seat of a twin if I want to teach instruments in it? Not sure how that one works and getting differing opinions at school.*

If there's any other ones that would benefit me, I'm open to suggestions. I don't have a problem studying/learning (actually I quite enjoy it - nerd) so whatever you folks think, I'm willing to consider...except for type ratings...I'm not going to buy one of those....unless SWA is looking for us folks with 200/10...in which case I'm all ears.:p

Thanks Guys/Gals!

-mini
 
None of them are worth a $h!t. Hours count. You will have all the ratings you need until it's time to get your ATP. No ground instructing, centerline thrust, tailwheel whatever will do more good than instructing and building up enough time to do 135 or get a regional job. JMO. Anyone else?TC
 
garf12 said:
whats a centerline thrust?
A twin with an engine on the nose and one on the ass vs. one on each wing...if you take your MEL ride in one of those you're limited to "center thrust" (no barons, king airs, 737s, etc)

AA717:
Thanks...I was hoping to hear that :D...I'm assuming that I should use the money that I'll save not getting a seaplane rating and buy some ramen or twin time?
 
AA717driver is definately right on with getting the hours required for 135 and regionals. If you don't meet the minimum hour requirements (especially for 135) then it will really limit your options and chances. However there are advantages to some of those other ratings. Glider and seaplane each will teach you a different set of skills, but how much of that will help you out later may be very small. High altitude and high performance should just be done when you need it. Tailwheel would be fun, but like seaplane, there is little you are likely to do with it after you get it unless you own an airplane. It is not very easy to find a tailwheel to rent beyond training. The easiest and cheapest add-ons to get would be the advanced and instrument ground instructor. There are two advantages to this. One is that the advanced or instrument is one requirement to get your Gold Seal CFI if you can pass enough students in a 2 year period. See here: http://www.faa.gov/fsdo/slc/6165d.htm#p18 for more on the gold seal. The other advantage is that some places will score an online application that you send in and the more certificates or ratings you have, the better your score. Hope this helps.
 
I would say you NEED a Commercial-ASEL, AMEL, Instrument, a CFII-SE, AME, and when the time comes and ATP-AMEL. The other stuff is not "gotta have it stuff". The industry is reaching a point where an FE is not going to help much. The GI certificates arent required if you have a CFI, but at the same time it doesnt take much effort to get them when you are getting your CFI.

A Dispatcher does load planning, flight planning, weather, fuel, etc for FAR Part 121 flights (airline). The written comes from the same book as the ATP written. There are various schools that do 6 week Dispatcher courses to get the Certificate. Some Charter and Corporate flight departments use dispatchers and require that they be certificated. Working as a dispatcher may be a way into eithEr an air carrier or a corporate flight department at some point down the road, so if its something you may be interested in and have the $$, go for it. It cant hurt and will give you an aviation back up plan.

The high performace endorsement is something you should get. High altitude will come in time when you are flying something that requires it.

Tailwheel, seaplane, glider endorsements/ratings probably wont help too much in your career. However they MAY help build rapport with an interviewer at some point. My tailwheel time (limited, but lots of fun) has been brought up a few times in interviews by guys who love taildraggers. A friend got a job after a 45 minute interview where the interviewer talked about nothing but seaplanes. Apparently they got their ratings at the same school, so the interview turned into a friendly chat about flying on water. Again any extra training is going to do something to make you a better pilot, so if you have the cash, go for it!

Good Luck!
 
minitour said:
Centerline Thrust? I'm getting the CMEL in a Duchess so will I be rated for Centerline also? Do I need to/want to be?
I'll leave to the folks who are in the industry to tell you what counts. Just a minor clarification on this one.

"Centerline thrust" is a limitation, not a goal. If you have "centerline thrust" on your MEL rating, it means you haven't been trained in critical engine operations and are not permitted to be PIC in a "real" multi. It's not something you =need= in order to fly a centerline thrust MEL. Without the limitation on your certificate. you may fly either.
 
midlifeflyer said:
..."Centerline thrust" is a limitation...
what a stupid I am...it says that right there in the book...I guess if I was paying attention...

Thanks for the help folks! Keep it comin.

-mini
 
Flywrite said:
Again any extra training is going to do something to make you a better pilot...
Couldn't agree more. Don't listen to those grouchy old guys that insist that anything other than absolute minimum required certifications is a waste of time. Don't be afraid to stop and smell the aeronautical roses. You'll think flying is a lot more fun, trust me.

-Goose
 
None of them are worth a $h!t. Hours count. You will have all the ratings you need until it's time to get your ATP. No ground instructing, centerline thrust, tailwheel whatever will do more good than instructing and building up enough time to do 135 or get a regional job. JMO. Anyone else?TC
Untrue. No amount of training is wasted.

I've been hired for a number of jobs, and hold several jobs right now, because I have a wide variety of exposure to different types of flying, and experience. Many opportuities I've had would never have opened to me if I didn't have that experience.

Further, I'm alive today because having that experience made it possible. Time after time I have been able to look back on events that I've experienced and draw on them when necessary, sometimes under challenging and unusual circumstances.

Never listen to someone who tells you to obtain the minimum, or meet minimum performance standards. That is not a professional attitude. Achieve everything you can. Be everything you can. I never discuss practical test standards with a student or applicant or trainee or interviewee, because I expect a higher level of performance, and train to a higher level of performance. I don't work with or fly with those who train to or profess minimum standards. Set higher standards.

Do you need additional ratings? Not to meet minimum hiring and performance standards. No. You don't. But is there any reason you should not seek that training and experience? None. Seeking out and obtaining the training and experience is commendable, and will serve to make you a better pilot, and a more valueable asset.

Just as a college degree is a discriminator in selecting a candidate for a job in many cases, so is the level of certification you hold in your wallet. Hours are worthless. Ratings are worthless. Just paper. But they do impress folks. I've got a passel of FAA certificates. Employers get a kick out of seeing them laid out on the table. Do they count for anything? No, not really. Nothing more than the ink that dirtied up the paper they're printed on. But I've gained an edge in a variety of jobs because of those ratings. I have ratings in aircraft that will never fly again; they aren't out there to fly. But I also have the experience that came from them, and whatever some may choose to believe, that experience does count for something. It makes me a better me, gives me a broader range of experience, and has given me an edge in interviews.

Look at it this way. I've listed a few of the aircraft I've flown on resumes and applications. Inevitably that starts a conversation in the interview, and that alone as an ice breaker gives me an in. Does the airplane itself make me more valueable to the employer? No. But in the employers mind, it gives him something unique to remember me for; he may even see it as a plus, as an edge...hey,this guy has had some solid experience...

Maybe not. At any rate the training you get isn't wasted.

You'll learn about mistakes that have crept into your early training when you receive instruction on conventional gear (tailwheel) aircraft. You'll learn about energy management, weather, lift, and proper flying of the wing (rather than the engine) when you obtain your glider rating. You'll learn about fine wind currents and planning when you obtain your balloon rating. You'll learn a lot about coordination and a thousand other things when you obtain your rotorcraft rating...helicopters are expensive. Start with a gyroplane rating.

Do you need these things? NO. You don't. If you're going to go for a government flying job, a dual rating is a very strong, very big plus. But not for an airline job. But I gaurantee that if you pay one iota of attention in training, you can't hardly help becoming a better pilot for it.

I learned more about aerodynamics by flying my own body in freefall than I ever absorbed from various texts on the subject, or in any of my flight training. I had come to undertand the books, but to feel it, to make your body into an airfoil and become the wing, become the lifting body, become the test object in a giant wind tunnel...that has made an unbelievable difference in the way I feel and fly the airplane. It's made a difference in the way I plan ahead, the way I see things spatially and dimensionally in flight.

Learning to land off field, fly under power lines, fly close to objects...these gave me an appreciation for thinking "outside the box" (I hate that yuppie expression) aeronautically.

Working on airplanes isn't everybody's cup of tea; I started doing it as a means to flying. Now I own 12 tool boxes that are shadowed and full of tools, and all of them have been well used. I've made my living getting dirty at times when the flying wasn't there, but that experience has also enabled me to understand aircraft systems, and to deal with airplanes in an emergency in ways that I don't believe I would have, or could have, without that experience. Is it necessary? No, but I'm alive because I have had that experience, and to me it's invalueable. You'll have to determine if pursuing that experience is valueable enough to you to make the effort. It's an individual determination.

I've been put through the ringer with the FAA a time or two. Those very unpleasant experiences gave me the impetus to follow the advice of an associate who once wisely told me that the only way to beat the red tape crowd at their own game is to be better at it than they are. I don't recommend getting jammed up with the FAA. But the experience put me in a position today where I'm a lot more comfortable dealing with FAA intracies, I am a lot more serious about understanding and adhering to the regulation, and I have a much better feel for my place in the system. I don't think that would have happened without that experience, for me.

My point is that experience is not wasted. Is it an absolute essential? No, you can get to an airline seat, what I would call an entry level position, without any of these things. But who in their right mind advocates a minimum achievement level? A minimum level of performance? You can achieve the same seat with all the experience outlined, and at the same time you make yourself a whole lot marketable along the way.

This year, most of the large air tanker contracts were inexplicably (and illegally) cancelled by the USFS. A lot of very experienced and knowledgable hands, indeed the backbone of the aerial firefighting industry, were out of work overnight.

Many were quite upset that they didn't immediately obtain or could not obtain a seat in the single engine air tanker (SEAT) program, because they lacked the agricultural and conventional gear experience. A lot of bitterness arose. I believe their fire experience would have made them very valueable assets in those SEAT cockpits...but the majority of pilots trying to make that transition in times past have balled up the airplanes. A few did it. I was very fortunate to already have a seat in a SEAT...and I incurred a lot of wrath from the large air tanker crowd, where I once flew, out of jelousy on their part.

Here is an example of a time when having a wider experience base, of having that conventiona gear experience (and some ag experience) would have been the perfect safety net for their position. Essentially furloughed, they couldn't get work in their own industry because many lacked the essential experience to get insured in the SEAT aircraft. I knew one such large air tanker pilot that approached my own employer about a SEAT slot, and a week later balled up a conventional gear airplane...he had eight hundred hours of tailwheel time, but not in comparable equipment, and he wasn't ready for the transition. No slight on him...but it supports the point that the experience you gain today is NOT wasted tomorrow. No matter what segment of the industry in which you operate.

Take every opportunity to train. That training can only serve to help you. Good luck!
 
avbug said:
Never listen to someone who tells you to obtain the minimum, or meet minimum performance standards. That is not a professional attitude. Achieve everything you can. Be everything you can... Set higher standards.
That's exactly why pilots should go to college. It is what separates the thinking, strategizing, problem solver from the truck driver.

avbug said:
You'll learn about fine wind currents and planning when you obtain your balloon rating.
I'd love to get my Commercial Balloon add-on sometime. I could even instruct!

-Goose
 
...so then I should be more concerned with getting a degree in anything rather than a tailwheel endorsement or glider rating, etc.?

-mini
 
minitour said:
...so then I should be more concerned with getting a degree in anything rather than a tailwheel endorsement or glider rating, etc.?
*begin sarcasm*
No, you should forget about college, as well as the tailwheel and glider stuff. Niether one of them are that important, and won't contribute to your flying expertise. After all, it's just rote monkey skilll and TJPIC that makes a successful pilot anyway. Heaven forbid that you actually understand why you do what you do in life as well as flying.
*end sarcasm*

Why does it have to be an either/or proposition? Are your resources so scarce as to preclude doing both?

-Goose
 
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Goose Egg said:
...Why does it have to be an either/or proposition? Are your resources so scarce as to preclude doing both?

-Goose
basically...

Unless I can get on with a good paying 91/135/regional operator where I can pay back the loan I have now and work on a degree...

I realize good paying and regional don't necessarily go together, but you get the idea...

for someone like me who didn't go to college right out or high school, I feel behind for sure, so I want to make the most of what I've got and what I can get going for me...

the only problem would be the degree...if I were going to get one, I would want a PGM (Professional Golf Management) degree...problem there is working at a golf course is part of the deal...not leaving much time to fly...

I've thought about Business, management, accounting, etc...but nothing really interests me...

I dunno...

Thanks again for the help folks...much appreciated..

-mini

PS
What exactly is an FE? What does one do?
 
Goose and avbug pretty much nailed my thoughts on this to the button. My tailwheel endorsement, and subsequent tailwheel flying (you can find them to rent, just look around, if that doesn't work, go to your local airport and hook up with someone who owns one and keep 'em company!) is some of the best fun I have flying. All it takes is a little two-seat fabric tailwheel plane, no electrical system, open windows, a summer afternoon and a clear schedule, and you will be struck down with an infatuation that will never shake from you.

Not only will you be giggling your little pants right off, but you'll realize how spoiled you were with differential ailerons in whatever you're flying now, your feet will wake up and actually do some work, and you'll find yourself with a NEW way to look at flying. All those skills and new ideas will transfer to the rest of your flying, and your friends will go, "Man, he got really good at X-winds!"

I'm well on my way to a neat turbine filled career, but I'll always dream of that 65 horse Continental, and the smell of fresh cut grass in the cockpit... as I train my eyes on getting my Glider rating (hmmm....drool), where I'll REALLY learn how to fly.

And if I got myself to where I am today, AND went to college at the same time, self-financed, so can you.
 
1500 feet on cow farts in an L-13...
Four extra miles gliding in an 'engine out' Mooney on a checkride...
The Cheshire Cat grin that has yet to fade.

Soaring can be fun.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
 
minitour said:
the only problem would be the degree...if I were going to get one, I would want a PGM (Professional Golf Management) degree...problem there is working at a golf course is part of the deal...not leaving much time to fly...
That actually sounds like a fun degree program, but I guess I'm not understanding why majoring in PGM automatically relegates you to golf course employment. Would you be an indentured servant? And what if you worked at the golf course part time? You'd have enough time to fly, as well as another source of income with which to pay for, among other things, cool fun flying like acro, tailwheel, glider, etc. Where's the down side?

-Goose
 
Goose, pay attention

It has been well established that the college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. My case is proven by the feats of the pilots in WWII, very few had degrees and their performance was legendary. I not saying they were not intelligent, they were screened for intelligence and they were well trained. The same can be said for a great number of Army and Navy pilots in Vietnam. They, were very good skilled pilots, but they did not have a degree. The degree opens doors, but it has nothing to do with flying an airplane. If you have the time and money pick up as many aviation skills and rating as you can. Not going to college does not mean a lack of learning.

 
pilotyip said:
It has been well established that the college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. My case is proven by the feats of the pilots in WWII, very few had degrees and their performance was legendary. I not saying they were not intelligent, they were screened for intelligence and they were well trained. The same can be said for a great number of Army and Navy pilots in Vietnam. They, were very good skilled pilots, but they did not have a degree. The degree opens doors, but it has nothing to do with flying an airplane. If you have the time and money pick up as many aviation skills and rating as you can. Not going to college does not mean a lack of learning.
That post represents a rather substatial step forward in your anti-college diatribe tactics. Good for you.

-Goose
 
avbug said:
Look at it this way. I've listed a few of the aircraft I've flown on resumes and applications. Inevitably that starts a conversation in the interview, and that alone as an ice breaker gives me an in. Does the airplane itself make me more valueable to the employer? No. But in the employers mind, it gives him something unique to remember me for;
Agreed 100%. I got my tailwheel in a non-electric cub at a 1900' grass strip right after I got my Private, and I've loved taildraggers ever since. I was at an interview recently and the Chief Pilot took note of some of the tailwheel planes on my resume. Turns out that he was a tailwheel guy, too - we talked about them for some time. It was a good icebreaker, something to remember me by, and something in common with the Chief Pilot.

Had a similar experience based on my <3 hours of glider time.

Go out and fly neat aircraft, learn new stuff, have FUN and don't sweat every detail about what you think "the airlines want to see." If you fly for the sole purpose of qualifying for your "dream job" then your aviation experience will be unfulfilling.
 
A degree will open doors to airlines that require them. Without a degree, you're locking yourself out of many companies. If you have the resources, I would at least start working towards it. That in itself may count for something in an interview, just to show motivation if nothing else.

A tailwheel rating COULD open some doors for such jobs as towing banners or gliders. It would definitely add to your skills too, so it would not necessarily be wasted. Same with a glider rating - plus you may be able to do some additional types of instructing with either or both of those additions to your quiver.

Don't worry about high alt/high perf. In the freight world for example, you would probably start in a Navajo or similar aircraft then progress to a Metroliner etc. You will be ready for turboprops when the time comes because of your increased experienced in the higher-powered piston airplanes. Your experience in the Duchess is sufficient prep for a Navajo job once you get the hours. Freight (especially single-pilot) is actually a great way to build experience, and is valuable on your resume later on. PIC turbine time being a big part of that.

JMHO
 
Not Anti-college

I am not anti-college, and I have posted support of going to college, but college is not the end all in an aviation career. To concentrate solely on an aviation degree at the expense of building valuable flight experience flying hard IFR in multi-engine airplanes will not guarantee a job at the majors in the future. The degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. My premise has always been if you want to be a pilot, start flying, build time, get those decent paying jobs early in your 20’s. Avoid the tremendous debt of a 4-yr degree. Do your college on the side if you think you need it to open doors. This is an alternate to the "college first” politically correct thinking that is the mainstream of the posters here. However, if a candidate goes about pursing an aviation career, works hard, always learns, masters his profession, he can get a good start without a degree. You can not sit at home and “veg” and make it doing anything.
 
pilotyip said:
I am not anti-college, and I have posted support of going to college, but college is not the end all in an aviation career. To concentrate solely on an aviation degree at the expense of building valuable flight experience flying hard IFR in multi-engine airplanes will not guarantee a job at the majors in the future. The degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. My premise has always been if you want to be a pilot, start flying, build time, get those decent paying jobs early in your 20’s.
Your premise is out of order. Decent-paying jobs don't go to just anyone. One needs competitive credentials to get these decent paying jobs, and the degree is one of them.
Avoid the tremendous debt of a 4-yr degree.
What about getting a scholarship, Yip? That's one way of avoiding tremendous debt.
Do your college on the side if you think you need it to open doors. This is an alternate to the "college first” politically correct thinking that is the mainstream of the posters here. However, if a candidate goes about pursing an aviation career, works hard, always learns, masters his profession, he can get a good start without a degree. You can not sit at home and “veg” and make it doing anything.
You continue to advocate exception. It is not a "politically correct" matter at all; it's a smart, practical and pragmatic matter. Getting the degree codifies the learning you have acquired.

Get the degree. Get it out of the way. There will still be plenty of time to build flight time. With the degree, you'll be able to check off every education square. Without, you won't.

Also, get the tailwheel endorsement, for the fun and training of it, if nothing else. I wish I had one.
 
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also, keep in mind that getting that 4 yr degree gets harder as you get older. I know lots of people in their 30's and 40's working on their degree, all the while lamenting the fact that they had not pursued it when they were young - i.e. right out of highschool. Life gets more complicated as you get older. Get the degree.. I've never met anyone that has regretted getting their degree, much less when they were young.
 
Get all the fun stuff now while you can. Later you will be on a minimal FO salary with a wife and kids that care about the "money" so they can spend it. Spend some on yourself now while you are young and you will enjoy it.
 
Yeah. Listen to AvBug. Dead on. If I may, I will add a couple suggestions. One is aerobatics. Specifically teaching aerobatics. Ya ain't lived yet. Secondly is to teach instruments, and I mean teach in the clag.
 
minitour said:
Anyone have any feelings on ground instructor certificates? Do I need/want them? Will they help me in the future?

No.

How about Tailwheel endorsement? It seems like fun, but is it something that will help? I've heard some airlines like it (but wasn't told which ones or why) but some couldn't care less.

No.

High Altitude? High Performance?

No. Yes.

Centerline Thrust? I'm getting the CMEL in a Duchess so will I be rated for Centerline also? Do I need to/want to be?

Don't matter.

Seaplane(not sure if it has a practical purpose)? Helicopter (even though they scare me, I'm willing to try if it will help)? Glider?

No. No. No.

Dispatcher? What does the practical test consist of? What does a dispatcher do?

HELL NO.

FE? What exactly is a FE? What does he/she do? I know nothing about this one...

No. You'd never use it and couldn't get it anyway.


Just get your flight time up.. thats all.
 
minitour said:
...so then I should be more concerned with getting a degree in anything rather than a tailwheel endorsement or glider rating, etc.?

YES!!!


You need an edumacation..
 
Certificates and ratings, and interviewer bonding helps

minitour said:
Anyone have any feelings on ground instructor certificates? Do I need/want them? Will they help me in the future?
I disagree with the majority. Get your ground instructor certificates. For one thing, the writtens are essentially the same ones you will take for CFI. Though the regs now require that you have signoffs for currency, ground instructor tickets do not expire. Most importantly, ground instructor tickets give you something else to add to the "Certificates and Ratings" section of your resume.
How about Tailwheel endorsement? It seems like fun, but is it something that will help? I've heard some airlines like it (but wasn't told which ones or why) but some couldn't care less.
Flywrite and Avbug wrote that having it can give you something to talk about at an interview. Take that to mean an opportunity to find common ground with your interviewer; take that to mean a chance to bond with him/her.

A bonding opportunity can get you hired. While I was at Riddle, there was an instructor who had his glider ratings. He attended an Express I interview, where, it turned out, his interviewer also had glider ratings. They found that common ground, and, guess what? He got hired.
High Altitude? High Performance?
You'll get those in due time.
Centerline Thrust? I'm getting the CMEL in a Duchess so will I be rated for Centerline also? Do I need to/want to be?
Only if you want to fly Cessna Skymasters. Midlifeflyer noted correctly that centerline thrust is a restriction on a multiengine rating that is removed after a checkride in a non-centerline thrust airplane.

Centerline thrust is primarily a military pilot concern because so many fighters have centerline thrust. Some airlines discount centerline thrust multi time.
Seaplane(not sure if it has a practical purpose)? Helicopter (even though they scare me, I'm willing to try if it will help)? Glider?
Seaplane, primarily for fun and for the "bonding" prospect, above. Also see my glider story, above.
I'd be looking to add on any of them to the Commercial Single and Multi. Would I be able to find a paying job for any/all of them?
I have a friend who is a glider pilot with all ratings as well as an airplane pilot. He was out of work for the longest time, but found his way back in as a glider instructor.
FE? What exactly is a FE? What does he/she do? I know nothing about this one...
Some less-modern aircraft require a flight engineer. A flight engineer has a panel on which he/she monitors an airplane's engines and systems. Many of these aircraft are being retired (which is sad, because so many of them are beautiful, great airplanes). You don't need it, unless you happen upon a job which requires FEs.

Do get your CFI-I and MEI. Schools usually require CFI-Is who instruct instruments in multis to also have MEIs. There was a recent discussion elsewhere on the board that debated whether CFI-Is legally need MEIs when instructing instruments.

Any kind of training that will improve your knowledge and skills is valuable.

Finally, get your four-year degree. Period.

Hope this helps.
 
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TurboS7 said:
Get all the fun stuff now while you can. Later you will be on a minimal FO salary with a wife and kids that care about the "money" so they can spend it. Spend some on yourself now while you are young and you will enjoy it.
eh...how about a low salary CFI-to-be with a wife that has less in student loans to pay back than I do? It sucks being poor...I never should have left retail...I would have made almost 40k this year with bonuses/perks...but...I hated it and I love this flying sh*t...so I guess it all works out...

hell, who needs money when you've got a student trying to kill you in a cross controlled departure stall when they yank full back and kick the right rudder all the way at 300' off the runway "becaue they thought it would be fun"...

-mini

PS
Thanks folks for all the help. Much appreciated.
 

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