Examiners - Question.

[minitour]

When you're giving a check ride (specifically instrument, but please share regarding others too) and the "student" does something that is completely unacceptable, do you give them the option to finish the check ride and just re-test on that item, or do you just say "okay...lets go home"?

Recently had a discussion (good one too) with my roommate about a few students that have doinked their instrument checkrides (all from the same instructor too - go figure ) on the first approach. Two busted the MDA on the back course and one started a descent before the GS came in and about 4 miles outside the marker...bad stuff.

So anyway, I asked (for when I do "mock checkrides" with students) if it is better to give them the option to finish or not.

My thoughts:
On an instrument ride: No - they only get one chance to become a smoking hole in a mountain.

On a pvt/comm ride or VFR maneuver on a ME ride: Sure - if they doink a steep turn, but nailed the first part of the ride and they think they can still do a chandelle or S-turn, let them to it...then they can go up and work on steep turns for a while and come back and do 'em right.

Opinions?

Thanks!

-mini

 

[Flechas]

The examiner is suposed to tell you when he/she decides you have failed the ride, and then give you the option to continue with the rest and maybe get some more stuff out of the way, that way when you do the retake you only have to be tested on the area(s) you screwed up.
However, not all examiners go by the book and do whatever they want. So the best way to answer your question is, depending on your examiner. When you go on the checkride, you can ask him before hand what is the way he does it, it's only fair that you know.

 

[urflyingme?!]

From the student's perspective. If they are quite, you are doing well. If they say something, you aren't doing the best. If they say you fail, you fail. But just because they comment on someting, they may be trying to help, or distract you.

I found that prsenting yourself as an organized knowledgeable pilot in the oral, and duing the fun fun fun paperwork, can gain some brownie points during the ride.

 

[User546]

I did have the Designated Examiner on my initial instrument ride tell me before we went to fly that the checkride would be over the first time I failed a particular portion of the ride.

He had everything structured in a logical order (BAI first, intercepting second, etc.) and he said that he doesn't continue rides past a point that a student fails a particular task because they all build up on each other, and if you can't do one particular thing, then you'll most likely have problems with everything else.

I know thats arguable, but that was his way of thinking and he was the examiner!

 

[Lead Sled]

Mini,
I'm not an examiner, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night so...

(Actually, at one point I was asked to be a DE, but I took a job out of the FSDO's area and had to turn it down. I have taken more checkrides than I can count over the past 39 years so maybe I can throw in a few insights until someone, like JAFI, can chime in.)

When it comes to the checkride...
They are not looking for perfection, they're basically just looking to see if you stay within tolerances and are safe. The phrase that is used is "the outcome is never seriously in doubt." To date, throughout the entire history of the world, no one has ever flown a perfect checkride (or flown a perfect flight for that matter) and you or one of your students will not be the first. If you find yourself crosswise with any given manuever, simply correct yourself and move on. Unless you've done something totally off the wall it probably won't even be mentioned.

Remember, anyone can bust any checkride on any given day and for reasons that really have nothing to do with your proficiency. Designated examiners have a certain pass/fail ratio that they have to fall within or they are subject to additional scrutiney from "big brother". None of them want to be subject this and few will admit it, but if they happen to be bordering on becoming known as "Santa Claus" they will do what ever they have to do - fortunately, this doesn't happen very often. I'm not telling you this to get anyone wound up, but simply to let you know of the possibility. If worse comes to worse it's really no big deal, you just have to go back and demonstrate the manuver(s) that you were found lacking in.

As a flight instructor, I hope that you resist the temptation of "teaching to the test". As a CFI, you will come to know pretty much how all of the examiners in your area give a checkride. It can be a real temptation to gloss over a specific area if the examiner that you are using typically places little or no emphasis on that particular area. Don't do it. If your students are prepared, they will be able to pass any checkride.

When it comes to the oral...

I've found that most orals aren't too bad, thorough, but not too bad. The orals I've received have ranged in difficulty from very reasonable to "Good grief man, who do you think I am, the aircraft and engine design engineers?" Several years ago at the FSDO where I was living at the time, there was a particular Fed who took delight in giving CFI applicants 5 to 6 hour orals. Needless to say, this lady wasn't well liked. Thank goodness, I never had to deal with her. I never saw what was gained by that type of oral. As far as the actual oral goes, be very careful not to tell the examiner more than you know. Answer the questions simply and directly, nothing more. If they want more detail they'll ask you for it. In other words, if they ask you the battery voltage don't volunteer to draw the electrical system. The examiner will be able to tell very quickly when you're in over your head. Once that happens, they like to start probing for other weak areas - that's when you get into trouble.

If you're going to make aviation a career, then you'd better get used to the fact that you're going to have to take checkrides on an ongoing basis. It doesn't matter if you're flying charter, corporate jets, or for the airlines, you're going to have to take what amounts to an ATP checkride every 6 months for your entire career and hopefully, that will be a lot of checkrides. After a while, it's not a big deal; but I admit it's not my favorite thing to do.

'Sled

 

[urflyingme?!]

I like his opinion

 

[minitour]

Thanks for the insights so far guys...keep 'em comin.

Any instructors out there give your student a "checkride" before the checkride with tighter tolerances...just to be sure?

I just want to make sure I'm doing this right.

I don't want to end up "teaching the test"...I'd rather teach the knowledge and skills and then just help the student combine the skills into "maneuvers". I do want to make sure the students are prepared for the check ride when the time comes...aside from first solo, I can't imagine a more nervous-sick feeling.

 

[qmaster3]

I'd rather teach the knowledge and skills and then just help the student combine the skills into "101 sexual maneuvers".

MINI I am appalled

 

[minitour]

I'd rather teach the knowledge and skills and then just help the student combine the skills into "101 sexual maneuvers". QUOTE]

MINI I am appalled

LMFAO

 

[nosehair]

...hmmm, notice there are no answers from examiners.

 

[Jmmccutc]

...hmmm, notice there are no answers from examiners.

yeah i noticed that...i recently took my comm ride (three weeks ago) and the DE said that i "didn't 'go arrund'" at the appropriate time, so he said that i'd have to "come back" for another short field landing but asked if I WOULD like to continue the ride...i did, and since we were doing this out of our school i took an instructor once arround the pattern and then took the DE up again, he then later said it was one of the best (top 5) commercial rides he's ever given.

back to the task at hand

MINI, as in my case it says in the PTS that

If the examiner determines that a TASK is incomplete, or the outcome​

uncertain, the examiner may require the applicant to repeat that TASK,

or portions of that TASK. This provision has been made in the interest

of fairness and does not mean that instruction, practice, or the

repeating of an unsatisfactory task is permitted during the certification

process. When practical, the remaining TASKs of the practical test

phase should be completed before repeating the questionable TASK.

And

The examiner or applicant may discontinue the test at any time when​

the failure of an AREA OF OPERATION makes the applicant ineligible

for the certificate or rating sought. The test may be continued ONLY

with the consent of the applicant. If the test is discontinued, the

applicant is entitled credit for only those AREAS OF OPERATION and

their associated TASKs satisfactorily performed. However, during the

retest, and at the discretion of the examiner, any TASK may be reevaluated,

including those previously passed.

so based on my interpertaion the wording says that either the student or the eximiner can discontinue but a continuace is at the request of the applicant...so in a sense the applicant has the final say in weather the ride is continued or not...

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

Well, I am a DPE. We follow the practical test standards. with that being said, if an applicant fails a portion of the ride, other than the oral, the ride may continue with the agreement of both the applicant and the examiner. However, it's solely up to the examiner whether or not to offer that option. Most folks realize that the've screwed up and take it in stride. Some will be so freaked out that they can barely get the plane back on the ground (few and far between), while others will continue to march as if nothing happened. I've have found that if the applicant realizes his or her mistake and fully understands that the outcome of the ride will be unsatisfactory, regardless of their performance for the remaining evaluation, then I'll continue the ride to complete everything else. If, though, another manuever is unsatisfactory, then we call it a day. Another reason I would not continue the ride would be for a blantant safety issue or limitation excedance. Hope this helps.

 

[Jmmccutc]

Another reason I would not continue the ride would be for a blantant safety issue or limitation excedance.

good call

 

[MTpilot]

Mini, I do send all my students up for mock checkrides, where I work there are two instructors so she checks mine and I check hers. It works pretty well, it won't be as effective if you do it yourself.


What is this angel photo I keep hearing references to? Where can I find it?

 

[User546]

What is this angel photo I keep hearing references to? Where can I find it?

If your "looking for some fun" (hint, hint), search back thru the General Forum and you should find what your asking about.

 

[JAFI]

Mini, I was a DE and now work with a number of DE's, Train DE's, and fill out their letter, card, and even add them to the official computer (VIS) system. For the most part, a DE is not out to bust any one. They will, if you do not come up to the PTS standards. I remember looking at a web site a couple years ago from a DE who wrote about how the pass a check ride. As I recall he said that 80% of failures were because the applicant was not trained properly, 15% were because the applicant had personal baggage (maybe exam nerves) and 5% were because they just screwed up. Not a scientific study, but that was his take on the rides he saw.

You do not have to be perfect on a check ride. Every applicant is nervous (some more than others). What you need to do is the best flight you can and convince the examiner you are able to hold the certificate you are testing for.


Practice exams are always a good thing. The more "normal" the flight seems to an applicant the less nervous they will be.

JAFI