Everything is Coming Together for Delta

[Flyer1015]

Also Lear, based on what you are saying, the Pinnacle pilots need to vote no, otherwise they are hurting the profession for the other regional airline's negotiation power. Correct? By voting no, they are most likely voting themselves out of a job. But it seems for 65%, that is going to happen anyway. Might as well take full pay to the last day.

 

[titans10]

The problem is deliberately shutting down one company because their costs are too high then simply farming the portions of THAT flying that they like to a newer, lower-cost airline. The outsourced flying IS STILL THERE, they're just screwing over people to make it cost mainline less to farm it out.

THAT'S what I'm upset about. Hope that makes sense.[/QUOTE]

No I don't think it is right. However; that is a corp. decision not a pilot decision. I want mainline to fly all of there routes. Don't you want SWA to keep flying all there flights? We shall see what that future holds. This lowering cost is nothing new. It happens in every industry.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Sad for those guys but mainline taking back flying is a good thing for the future if all professional pilots.

Taking it back yet no need to hire for yet another year while hundreds more at DCI hit the street???? That 35% for hiring is really looking useful

 

[WMUSIGPI]

It's a business, not a welfare system. The reality is regional airlines are outsource providers. Interchangeable at the next contract, sometimes before.

Delta has a good management team right now. They are making pro-active decisions, and it seems the rest of the industry is reacting.

AKA "F U I got mine" Sounds like a yes voter at Continited

 

[WMUSIGPI]

They are just lowering it to what a regional was suppose to be in the first place: cheap contract feed. With current Airbus pilots at US Air making 125/hr and up until recently United guys making 137/hr, do you really think it's reasonable to have a 18yr CRJ payrate of 107/hr? Pinnacle outpriced itself out of the regional model. They took the industry standard 12-year pay rung/ladder and raised it to 18. All to benefit the top guys. And the latest rumor is that the new TA limits the FOs to 4 year max at about 35/hr. It doesn't take a genius to figure out who's running the show at 9E and at what seniority level the strings are being pulled.

As another guy posted, I think it's just business. Not a wellfare.

Yes, last I looked it was effectively the same job, just a few less people in the cabin, so yes it should pay just a little less. Why should that 900 captain subsidise the mainline pilots' pay?

 

[Lear70]

No I don't think it is right. However; that is a corp. decision not a pilot decision. I want mainline to fly all of there routes. Don't you want SWA to keep flying all there flights? We shall see what that future holds. This lowering cost is nothing new. It happens in every industry.

You're mixing apples and oranges.

Southwest doesn't have contract feed because it doesn't fit their business model to need it. They recently put out a piece from management about how Revenue decides what cities to serve and how much, and it's a complicated puzzle about the mix of originating and thru-traffic, since Southwest hops point-to-point inside the U.S.

The Legacy carriers don't do that, thus there IS no revenue from thru-passengers at the small outstation airports. So either it can be supported with O&D traffic, or it can't, with either all mainline flights, a mix, or just RJ's. It's a simple math equation.

So if you want Mainline to "Take it ALL back", that would mean NO RJ's, which would mean about 25-35% of your out-stations like Duluth, Bozeman, Wichita, etc, would lose ALL your traffic, since it wouldn't be supported by the small amount of O&D traffic and Mainline would have to drop the route entirely as people flocked to the OTHER carriers with lower costs still flying RJ's. What would that do to the overall revenue generation for your airline? to lose all that traffic?

What you want isn't really possible now that Pandora's box is opened. It would take EVERY Legacy carrier stopping their RJ feed so that no carrier could undercut another in price, the service to those small cities would die off, their citizens and governments would scream bloody murder, and something would be done to stimulate new low-cost service to those cities from another up-start carrier, highly-subsidized like many of those cities already are, and thus it repeats itself.

The citizens of this country have convinced the Federal Government that they are ENTITLED to low-cost air service to their itty bitty little podunk towns, and you're not going to change that.

So, in short, you can't "Have it all" at Mainline. What IS possible is to keep the large jets that are the size of the smaller DC-9's of the past on property, but all these airlines keep selling out 90 seat Scope to get rid of the 50-seaters that were going away anyway because of cost, and management is laughing all the way to the bank.

If you kept the 90+ seaters at Mainline and limited the Regionals to 89 seats or less (certified max configuration, not 90 reduced to 86 with a Business Class like NWA and then DAL pulled), you'd reduce the size of the Regionals by likely 40-50% and claim that flying for your own and do it in a way that creates a path for the Regional guys to flow into. This way, there's VERY little upward progression for the PCL people available as DCI flying is SHRINKING, at least for another year, before hiring starts back up again for incoming 717's as growth planes.

However, it's going to come at a cost, and the senior pilots in control of the union at the Legacies aren't interested in that. The senior continue to eat the junior... now THAT'S something you can be angry about and, from your position, get yourself into a position to change. You can't change the lower end of the spectrum without controlling it from the top.

 

[Andy]

Taking it back yet no need to hire for yet another year while hundreds more at DCI hit the street???? That 35% for hiring is really looking useful

If you look at Delta's last quarterly report, you'll see that combined mainline/regional ASMs shrunk by 2% year over year. After 9/11 until the last year or so, ASM shrinkage was solely on the mainline side of the house, while regional flying grew. While both mainline and regional ASMs shrunk, the greater percentage of shrinkage (8% vs 1%) was on the regional side of the house.
Welcome to the world that mainline pilots have dealt with since 9/11.

What is it that you'd like to see happen? 5% mainline shrinkage with 8% regional growth? Because that's what you're implying. That's not possible under DALPA's current contract.

To give you a full picture, look at AMR and UCH's last quarterly reports.
AMR mainline ASMs declined 2.5%. Regional ASMs declined .8%.
UCH mainline ASMs shrunk 1.4%. Regional ASMs shrunk 1.1%


The current trend among the three largest airlines is to reduce ASMs. At the same time, they're replacing older equipment with new aircraft that have more seats. Both trends reduce block hours.
On the mainline side of the house, the block hour reductions are starting to be offset by retirements. That isn't happening on the regional side.

 

[General Lee]

Taking it back yet no need to hire for yet another year while hundreds more at DCI hit the street???? That 35% for hiring is really looking useful

First of all, BK is a horrible thing, for almost everyone except BK attorneys. It cuts wages, benefits, and allows changes that normally wouldn't happen between parties with contracts. We saw it on both the DL and NWA side, and it wasn't fun. Scope was changed too, allowing MORE RJs. Now it seems reversed. The fortunate few who got new upgrades or faster upgrades now will unfortunately feel it on the other side.

Also, 2013 is probably awash with hiring, but not all PNCL pilots will leave at once. Hopefully the departures will somewhat coincide, and hopefully the other legacies will also start major hiring too.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[lakemead1]

First of all, BK is a horrible thing, for almost everyone except BK attorneys. It cuts wages, benefits, and allows changes that normally wouldn't happen between parties with contracts. We saw it on both the DL and NWA side, and it wasn't fun. Scope was changed too, allowing MORE RJs. Now it seems reversed. The fortunate few who got new upgrades or faster upgrades now will unfortunately feel it on the other side.

Also, 2013 is probably awash with hiring, but not all PNCL pilots will leave at once. Hopefully the departures will somewhat coincide, and hopefully the other legacies will also start major hiring too.


Bye Bye---General Lee

General- Do u think Delta will hire in 2013 in spite of what was said about no hiring in 2013?

 

[enuffalready]

General- Do u think Delta will hire in 2013 in spite of what was said about no hiring in 2013?

he doesn't know any more than you.

 

[B727FA]

If you kept the 90+ seaters at Mainline and limited the Regionals to 89 seats or less (certified max configuration, not 90 reduced to 86 with a Business Class like NWA and then DAL pulled),

How's that "pulling" anything? I get the a/c weight for pay issue, but the bottom line is 77+ seats are at ML.

 

[Lear70]

How's that "pulling" anything? I get the a/c weight for pay issue, but the bottom line is 77+ seats are at ML.

I'm talking about what they did in the past.

At NWA there was previously a cap that mainline flew anything 90 seats and up. So the regionals put 86 seats in a 90-seat aircraft and flew them around, thus doing an end-run around the INTENT of the Scope language.

That's why future scope should be written with the aircraft's MAX CERTIFICATED passenger seating configuration in mind, and it has at many carriers now.

 

[BR715]

Buying lots of DAL!

 

[General Lee]

General- Do u think Delta will hire in 2013 in spite of what was said about no hiring in 2013?

He is right, I don't really know. I doubt it, but there could be a chance for some flow ups at the end if the year I guess. I heard we were about 400 pilots fat right now, but that will change when 14 MD90s come next year, plus 717s start coming in AUG. The new 739s will also come in Aug, and they will make people go to training if they are being displaced off of 757s or 320s they are replacing. So, by Summer I think we won't be fat on pilots like we are now, and by the end of the year they may be ready to hire or continue the flow up. Once it does start, it won't stop, but it has to start first....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Freight Dog]

That kind of mentality is a large indicator of what is wrong with Corporate America and why the middle class will continue to get squeezed until there's nothing left of this Country but MBA's and bean counters at the top and entitlement people at the bottom.

That approach simply isn't sustainable in the long term. Make take a few more decades for people to figure out, but you can see it clearly from where people's standard of living was 30 years ago and where it is now in the U.S.


What did you have in mind?

Not debating rights or wrongs of Corporate America, but realize the reality and what is used against you, and guard yourself against it.

There is no reason to have such huge disparities in compensation (read: expenses) for doing the same job. In other words, the captain pay should be X, the FO pay should be some high percentage of X... PERIOD.

This whole 'rewarding' loyalty through longevity based pay is b.s. because you're opening yourself up to "why pay more when..." line of questions, and in turn you'll always be dragged down by your lowest paid pilot. In PCL case, why pay a 12 year captain when you have 3 year captain at GoJet.

Realize that the concept of 'putting in 30+ year at our companies and retire from there' is just no longer there. Give yourself the ability to vote with your feet. Right now, it's limited to business jet pilots and overseas airline pilots.

Now, I realize this change can't/won't happen overnight. ALPA has to wake up to new realities affecting your 21st century airline pilots and adapt to them. The concepts from 1972 and 2012 are worlds apart, yet ALPA is still stuck in 1972. What's worse, they're resistant to change, and in the end, it's hurting the pilots.