entry level light twin

[darien]

For the guys that have flown older 1960's-1970's b-55s b-58 seneca's and tc-twin comanches Which would be most cost effective for low multi time insurance? These have comparable performance numbers but manuverability which do you prefer?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I prefer the Barons over the others as far as flying quality, and construction.

Used to be that the Piper equipment could be insured for less due to the hull value. Beechcraft always held their value a little better. I do not know about today.

I have seen more and more insurance companies requiring FS, simuflite, or simcom for b-58's now. So you would have to factor that cost in with the insurance.

Barons tend to be kind of pricy for maintenance, they are less forgiving mechanically for shock cooling and such. As a general rule, Lycomings can be abused a little more than Continentals without getting expensive. Also the senecas and twin comanche use a smaller engine than the barons (180 comanche, 200 seneca, 220 for turbo seneca, 260, 285, or 300 hp for the barons, or 350 hp for the fuel guzzeling 1967 B-56 TC, but hey, it outran the 90 king air for that year!!!!! Only problem was the fuel pump could irrigate a couple of acres no problem. They are pretty rare nowadays.) The Lycomings can normally be expected to make TBO without needing a top end as long as it is flown halfway decent. The Continentals can make TBO, but they must be flown correctly to do so normally.

Flying qualities, in my opinion, the continentals are smoother running, and the Barons fly much like a bigger airplane. I normally tell people its like comparing a Mercedes with a Ford, with the Baron being the mercedes. To me, the Barons tend to be better balanced and feel more solid, especially in weather. The pipers remind me more of driving a truck as opposed to a sportscar.

I have about 1000 hours in the Baron series from the 135 days, and about 300 hours or so in senecas, only about 25 or so in the Twin comanche, so My opinion may be biased toward the Baron's. But it is just that, my opinion.

Barons can be quite thirsty when you compare them to the pipers with the smaller engines. There is of course a speed difference, with the Baron being faster than the others, you just have to decide if the extra fuel burn is worth the extra speed.

 

[JimNtexas]

Would a BE-76 Dutchess work for you? It's a lot nicer flying plane than a Seneca, but of course no turbos or deice.

Certainly everything would be much cheaper for a Dutchess than a Baron.

 

[minitour]

Would a BE-76 Dutchess work for you? It's a lot nicer flying plane than a Seneca, but of course no turbos or deice.

Certainly everything would be much cheaper for a Dutchess than a Baron.

ah the good old firebird...flaming b*tch...other wonderful names we've come to call our Duchess trainer...seems like nothing in it works except the LORAN...gotta love it...

-mini

PS
It's a decent bird despite all the "issues"...never been in a Baron though...

 

[Tinstaafl]

What space, useful load & range ability do you need or want to have available? Those three will eliminate some aircraft types from consideration.

 

[vclean]

Beechcraft parts are historically expensive. Parts may be difficult to find for the older Barons. The early 60's A55s had generators which are very expensive and have poor charging characteristics resulting in dead or undercharged batteries.

Look into possible ADs for wing spar cracks.

 

[wheelsup]

Consider the Beech Travel Air. It's like a 'mini' baron, has 2x 160 hp's that burn ~15 gph total burn. A friend has one that he bought for $65,000 with 400 hours left on each engine. I've flown it before, a good airplane. I've also got time in a B58 and that's definately faster aircraft but burns twice as much...

As far as requring Simuflite, FSI, etc. training - another friend of mine, who is about 20 years old, owns a C-414 Ram V, has 600 hours TT and about 120 multi, and flies it alone (no one riding along) while having a $1 mil/ per person (8 seats I believe, so $8 mil) insurance policy on it. No training needed what so ever, just some time in it (not sure how much). I'm sure he pays more than the average person does for insurance but it can be done without going to those schools. Before any one flames and says "that's impossible" I'm telling you right now it's not. And no, I don't have the name of his insurance comapny.

A guy I used to work with owns a Twin Co, he likes it a lot. Here's his site: Fergworld. He did a lot of research and ended up with it. I've never flown it, but heard they're very "nose heavy".

Good luck!

~wheelsup

 

[HMR]

The Duchess is a great idea. Much cheaper than a Baron. Very easy to fly. No critical engine (counter-rotating props). You'll burn 16-18GPH at full throttle and get 150-160kts. Engines are very tolerant of abuse, I have @ 500hrs shock cooling/heating them during training and never once saw a cracked cylinder. The JanaBomb heater will always be a problem but it's that way in every plane that uses it. You can load 4 adults, bags and 4hrs fuel. In the Seneca V I used to fly you could barely put 4 people onboard and have enough fuel to go around the pattern.

 

[bigD]

The Barons are nicer handling airplanes than the Seneca or Twin Co, but honestly they shouldn't even be included in this discussion. There's a pretty sizable difference in operating costs, and at low multi-time, I'm not sure that they're insurable at any reasonable price.

wheelsup mentioned the Travel Air, and I agree. You get the same nice handling of the Baron (albeit without the performance), but at operating costs that are more in line with the Seneca and Twin Comanche. And you won't get laughed at when asking about insurance.

 

[DC9stick]

The Travel Aire Seminole and Duchess have O-360 Lyc's 180 HP and will burn 18-20 GPH.The Twin Comanche has IO-320 Lyc's 160 HP and will burn 16-18 GPH as will the Apache both 150 & 160 HP verisions, and still a good time builder, Make sure a GOOD mechanic runs a through AD compliance on any of the above listed.

You can burn less as some advertise but no one wants to go that slow. These are realistic numbers. The Baron, Aztec, Cessna 310 and any other 250 -300 HP twins will burn 24 - 36 GPH these #'s are just double what you would see on a single of the same HP. I have owned an Apache, T-Com, 2-310'S my wallet knows the fuel burn of which I speak.

 

[Vik]

I own a Twin Co. Great plane, can't beat the operating costs. PM me for more info or questions.

 

[Vector4fun]

One more possibility, if you can find a decent one, is a Geronimo. Note, I mean a full Geronimo conversion with the 180hp engines. Lots of folks bought the long nose or "square" tail for their Apaches, but never upgraded the engines. A 150 hp Apache with a Geronimo nose and tail is still an Apache. The extra 30 hp per side made a whale of a difference in the airplane. The problem is finding one that has been properly maintained over the years.


And never flip off the boost pumps too soon. Old Apache/Aztec drivers know why...


btw, does anyone else remember a PT-6 powered Apache based in New Mexico?

 

[darien]

great responses

I actually have about a couple hundred hrs in the Duchesses but it's too slow therefore the aze truck would also be out of the question. I currently have a Lance and Bonanza and also use the truck and sports car analogy. Like most GA guys fly 90% of the time by myself and mostly in Fla. I know some are saying why multi? Evolution.



V clean : great info on the A55 generators. These are tid bits from others experience that I luv learning here.



I talked to a mechanic a while back and I think he told me about some kind of weight in the B 58 which made landing a little trickier than the B 55. Anyone know about this?



The turbo Twin Comanche with tip tanks looks pretty attractive to me. Good performance and range and cost. Bad utility What are some other good and bads?

 

[HMR]

I actually have about a couple hundred hrs in the Duchesses but it's too slow therefore the aze truck would also be out of the question. I currently have a Lance and Bonanza and also use the truck and sports car analogy. Like most GA guys fly 90% of the time by myself and mostly in Fla. I know some are saying why multi? Evolution.

Whoa! You're in a different tax bracket than I thought. Forget the Duchess. Sell the Lance and Bonanza and get a CJ. It's easier to fly than the Duchess.

 

[FN FAL]

Get yourself into a thuroughbred like the Cessna 320 with the TSIO-470's...nothing like owning a twin that costs you 12,000 bucks a year in annuals and sports engines with no factory support.

Ask your plane mech if he/she ever heard of TSIO-470's?

Don't get caught with your pants down...go look up "aviaiton consumer" on google and buy their used aircraft reports for the aircraft you thinking about buying. You won't regret the 8 or 12 bucks you spend, believe me.