Enlisted or Officer Questions

[Fly2Scuba]

Sorry ahead of time if this seems long winded or redundant with previous posts. Looking for some prime advice on building a Air National Guard career while maintaining financial stability. I have spoken with three seperate recruiters at different bases and one gave me a discouraging response to my inquiry.
Basically, I have a 4 year degree and fly for a regional airline (last 3 1/2 years). While the airline pay needs signifigant improvement, it's much better than the pay for an enlisted position. Officer position pay however looked adequate, even if training lasted for a few months. From what I've read from past posts, Intelligence Officer postions look like great non-flying jobs (my vision sucks) to obtain. Unfortuanetly, enlisted Intelligence positions seem to require about a half year of training which I can't financially justify since my current housing is already provided free of charge courtesy of my roommates...Dad and Mom. One recruiter I spoke to completely shot down my chances of entering the Guard as an Officer as she stated Officer positions are almost always hired from within the ranks which really does make sense in all fairness. Also said obtaining a flying slot while needing a vision waiver for PRK was near impossible.
I'd like to join the Air National Guard without sacraficing too much financially. Wondering if what she told about Officer position hiring is true of most, if not all units? Is there an enlisted position that doesn't require lengthy training that would appeal to a professional pilot with a higher education background? Thanks for your answers...

 

[TonyC]

Have you talked to the Reserves?

I would always be suspicious of what ANY recruiter might tell you, especially if their mouth is moving when they say it. That "Officers always hired from within" remarks sounds quadruple suspicious. Consider the recruiter's motives - - he gets points for recruiting enlisted, and probably has little experience with officer candidates.

Find someone who has done what you want to do, and take THEIR advice about how to get there a better way - - I'm sure there will be lessons learned.

 

[rainman_02]

As stated above, an enlisted recruiter (recruiter for enlisted members) will always try to steer you towards enlisting. And officer recruiter (is there such a thing) would probably steer you towards being an officer.

Getting a waiver for eye surgery is not as hard as you would think.

There were several Guard guys in my UPT class. Only one of them was prior enlisted. With your degree complete, I believe you can go straight to AMS or OTS, but I'm not too familiar with the Guard.


Good luck, and keep asking questions. Getting all the perspectives before making a decision is a good idea.

 

[Big Duke Six]

Fly2S,

I went through the Guard to get my pilot slot. I was enlisted for nearly six years (I enlisted as I was starting college) in the unit before I got selected to go to UPT. Unfortunately, I do not know of any non-prior enlisted guys that got officer positions. They did hire a few guys off the street to go to UPT, but like I said I don't know of any street guys coming into non-flying jobs. Wait. Oh, my wife (who is still in the Guard) says she has heard of 2 or 3 in the last 10 years or so, so that's probably something like less than 5% of the officers that have come in during that time who were NOT previously enlisted in the unit.

I would say it could be done but it would probably greatly improve your odds if you knew somebody in the unit to get you introduced. That's usually very important to them.

For any officer job, there is almost always an enlisted person below them that has been working for years toward a degree in order to qualify for that job. As you've recognized, that will be a big hurdle, but not insurmountable because there may exist a position within the unit where for one reason or another there are simply no enlisted people interested or qualified. It may take some patience on your part to wait for such an opening.

Being enlisted for awhile may not be a bad road to take (you won't be the first guy to go through Basic with a four-year degree) but the pay is obviously low. But you would start out as an E-3 (with your education) which would start after you complete BMT, and you could then wait until an officer slot opened. You would stand a MUCH better chance of getting in that way. My .02.

 

[skyride56]

Go 4 It

Since it’s easier to find a job when you already have a job, I say go for it. I was selected for a SUPT slot without knowing anyone at the unit and having a 3.2 GPA in college.

To get you an idea of what some guard units are looking for in Pilot applicants (assuming your distant vision is at least 20/70). this is the prerequisite for the unit I applied for, (Just remember that EVERY UNIT IS DIFFERENT):

"In order for your application to be considered for UPT, you must meet the following mandatory requirements:

You must not be more than 27 1/2 years old with less than 5 commissioned years of service when you meet the UPT Selection Board.

You must have a bachelor’s degree or have met the requirements to graduate prior to meeting the UPT Selection Board:

Your vision must be 20/20 uncorrected, 20/70 distant vision uncorrected.

You must not have any major medical problems. (No waivers will be submitted)

- Provide a copy of your last long flight physical

As a minimum you must attain the following test scores on the Air Force Officers Qualifying Test (AFOQT):

25 Pilot Composite

10 Navigator Technical Composite

50 Combined Pilot/Navigator Composite

15 Verbal Composite

10 Quantitative Composite

To complete your application for UPT, as a minimum, you must provide the following documentation to your recruiter as soon as possible in order to be considered by the UPT selection board for that year:

- Complete enclosed AF Form 24

- Complete enclosed SF Form 180 (Section 1 and signature block)

Provide a certified copy of your AFOQT Scores. If the AFOQT needs to be administered, you must contact your recruiter for scheduling arrangements. This test must be administered as soon as possible in order to meet the UPT selection board for that year.

Provide a certified copy of your BATS test Scores. Coordinate BATS test through
your recruiter. (The combined BATS and AFOQT scores, in my opinion, carry a lot of weight during the selection process)

- Provide a photograph/snapshot of yourself (passport style or full view)

Provide a certified college transcript with degree conferred indicated. If you attended
more than one college, than all transcripts must be provided. A certified college transcript is the raised impression transcript that is sent from the institution directly. Xeroxed copies of your transcript will not be accepted. If the degree has not been awarded but you have completed requirements for graduation, a letter to that effect from the college/university must be attached to the transcript.

- Provide a resume of civilian and military experience if applicable, to include specific dates (YYMMDD).

- Provide a two-paragraph statement on (1) why you would like to be a pilot and (2) why you would like to be a member of the Hawaii Air National Guard.

- For applicants with prior military service, you must submit: Certified copy of DD Form 214 or other comparable reports of separation or discharge

- Copies of your last three performance reports (if prior service)

Notification will be sent to applicants selected for interview by the UPT Selection Board.

If you do not submit the required documents, or if you do not meet the prerequisites as established in this letter, your application will only be considered if there are no other qualified applicants."

Hope this helps,

SR

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

My .02....
Unless you want to "enlist", I find it a waste of time talking to a recruiter. If you want a slot with a particular unit, call them up and ask to talk to the commander or the Director of Ops. If you know someone at the unit, have him/her introduce yourself to the big cheese. I think it's a waste of your time enlisting when you already have a 4 year degree unless you really want the job badly. Many of these ANG/AFRes units are a good 'ol boy networks (especially ANG units), so it definitely helps to know someone.
You go to see a recruiter when you get the job and it's time to do the administrative paper work. Every reserve job I ever found was through my own research and effort. If you are looking for a reserve/guard job, I believe that has a job listing.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

My bad.... that's www.baseops.net for the job listing.

 

[Slim]

Have you considered the Army National Guard/Army Reserve?

You've indicated indicated interest in an intelligence position. Military intelligence (any oxymoron...I know!) in the Army begins at battalion level on up. At battalion level, the S-2 is a company grade officer position (2LT, 1LT, CPT).

I served as S-2 (staff intelligence officer) in a signal battalion years ago. It was closely alligned with the S-3 (operations) and I received a lot of good operations training from that position.

It's easier to be hired off the street as an officer in the Army Guard (can't speak for the Army Reserve) than the Air Guard. I started in the ANG (two years enlisted), then went to AMS and was medically DQd in UPT. I switched to the ARNG and served about 17 years non-rated.

When I was at AMS, almost all non-rated officer candidates were prior enlisted. There was a mix of prior and non-prior enlisted for the UPT/UNT group. Good luck...fly safe!

 

[JimNtexas]

"Basically, I have a 4 year degree and fly for a regional airline (last 3 1/2 years). While the airline pay needs signifigant improvement, it's much better than the pay for an enlisted position. "

Recruiters rarely care about officers. They are under a lot of pressure to fill enlisted quotas, and get no brownie points for signing up an officer.

Even the few recruiters who would help you out of the goodness of their hearts often don't know anything about officer ascension.

You need to identify the Guard unit you want to work for and get to know some officers in that unit. Are any of your coworkers in the Guard?

Heck, if nothing else find out when they are doing a static display and just meet some pilots there. Your goal is to meet the squadron Commander or Operations Officer.

I would not be the least surprised to find that there is a guard unit out there who would seriously consider an airline pilot willing to take a non-rated officer slot. Furthermore, I would also not be surprised that if such a person came on board and did good work that he might find himself with a UPT eye waiver before too long.

ETA: If you reallly, really want to be in the Guard or Reserve, look for an "Air Support Operations Squadron". These are Air Force units that live with the Army to provide liason and forward air control services. They always need people because, well, because living with Army can suck (trust me on this). But such a job would get you on the inside.

 

[fastbird]

Dude, you say your vision sucks. If it's 20/20 correctable and no more than 20/40 uncorrected you have a shot at a military flying career.

One key point to remember... RECRUITERS LIE. Their purpose in life is to get ENLISTED members not some much hiring potential officers. They will tell you to enlist and shoot for the Officer slot later. That's not required.

Many Guard and Reserve units are short officers and will send you to school, OTS and tecnical training. The reality is that right now people are leaving actives don't come in the part time force because they know they will RE-SERVE on active duty again. And there are a few that are just going back on active duty. Again, there are officer slots available IF you are willing to put in the effort network for them.

Find the nearest one and go visit or go to any military function to try and meet people on the inside. That baseops.net site is also good, if nothing else you can use it find the right person to talk to.

 

[Caveman]

O.k. Enough already with the recruiters are lying scumbags bit. In 1975 that may have been true but not any longer. As a group they are professional and talented folks. Just like any population there are exceptions, but to negatively characterize all of them is unjust and inaccurate. I could give you several examples of officers that are less than honorable but I certainly wouldn't characterize all or even most of them that way.

If you are going to be full time active duty and you want to be an officer don't go the enlisted route first. Go get your education, keep your record squeaky clean, and then sign on as a commissioned officer. Trying to go from enlisted to officer on the active duty side is very competitive. Trying to do it and get a flying spot is even tougher. It can be done but it makes more sense to get your degree first and then accept a commission.

The reserves are a different animal. Like a lot of posters already said most of the flying slots are assigned from within. The quickest way to get on the inside is to enlist in the guard for a particular unit, finish your education while drilling once a month, and then apply for a slot when they open up. By then you will be a known quantity and will have established a friendly acquaintance with those that make the decisions.

I also agree with what someone else said about the reserves being a full time gig. These days with the world what it is you may technically be in the reserves but you may be doing it full time for years on end. Voluntarily or not.

Good luck.