Enforcing "Training Contracts"? Evidently, they are enforcible...

[bobbysamd]

Accord and satisfaction

Lets say you just got a job at one of these rinky-dink companies that require you to sign a training contract. It's not your fault that they require you to sign that redicilous contract; heck, you just wanted a job, right?
Now lets say, right after signing that contract, you happen to get hired by FedEx. You're telling me that either you will pay the $15000-$20000 to settle the contract, or turn down FedEx so you can work the remaining years in your contract?

* * * *

I'm personally not going to miss out on a chance of a lifetime to fly for a major airline (FedEx for example) because I'm unwilling to break a contract based on personal moral obligations.

It doesn't have to be as black-and-white as you make it out to be. Perhaps you can work out a deal with the employer so that he/she is happy and you can leave for FedEx. This is known in the law as an accord and satisfaction:

[font=arial, helvetica, swiss]accord and satisfaction
n. an agreement to accept less than is legally due in order to wrap up the matter. Once the accord and satisfaction is made and the amount paid (even though it is less than owed) the debt is wiped out since the new agreement (accord) and payment (the satisfaction) replaces the original obligation. It is often used by creditors as "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" practicality.
See also: novation

[/font]Most anything can be negotiated. Yes, you may need an attorney's help, but better to pay the attorney and be known as an honorable person and not risk burning bridges and being known as a welcher.

Hope that helps a little more.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

And whose to say they havent? I've been on the receiving end of bad contracts my whole career. I've also seen employers break the contract every day.

Ace, I respect you for being a stand up guy and willing to pay back your training contract. However, I'm personally not going to miss out on a chance of a lifetime to fly for a major airline (FedEx for example) because I'm unwilling to break a contract based on personal moral obligations.

Let’s see now, you’ve had a bunch of companies break their promises to you, hmmm, what’s that called, oh yea! it's called karma.



As for this 'job of a lifetime', if it really is, then make good on your word and your obligation to your former employer. When anyone signs a contract of any kind, if they have half a brain they think of all the eventualities. I buy a car, I think of whether I can make the payment if I loose my medical and can't fly anymore. Anyway, the whole point is if the new opportunity comes along, 2 things: 1. Your employer that gave you the upgrade / rating is probably part of the reason you are getting the opportunity. 2. If it is a really great gig, then it will be money well spent to pay your debt back.



It's very simple, even if you don't believe in what just right and wrong.

Ace

 

[jimpilot]

Gotta Wonder

This is only my opinion:
Lets say you just got a job at one of these rinky-dink companies that require you to sign a training contract. It's not your fault that they require you to sign that redicilous contract; heck, you just wanted a job, right?

And just because you signed a contract to have a house built, well he realy didn't want to build it anyhow, he'll just take your money and do something that he doesn't consider redicilous with it. And just because you have a contract for a loan for 5%, well rates have gone up, so why shouldn't they raise you rate, oh and the warranty on your car, well who ever heard of honoring one of those, and ...

A man is only as good as his word. If he will not live up to a training contract because "It's not your fault that they require you to sign that redicilous contract; heck, you just wanted a job, right" then he is the guy you need to watch around your boss because it's not his fault he told less than the truth, because it's redicilous he works for you. And why should he write up that hard landing, after all it's not realy his fault.

Just as soon never fly with a pilot who's word is no good.

 

[Tina Fey's Scar]

It cracks me up when someone signs an agreement fully knowing what it means and then cries like a little baby when they break the agreement and the other party objects.

All of you who have broken training agreements know what you have done. If I was in charge of hiring at an airline and knew you broke one, I'd not hire you and let you know exactly why.

No integrity.

 

[squadronB52]

Folks ....

1. Anyone heard about these contracts enforced in the State of California, An "At Will" state ?

2. Nobody mentioned an Employer going after the pilot, if he fired the pilot for anything.

... for non "serious" job-related wrong doings, infractions, etc., that is ...


Thanks ....

 

[youmustbejoking]

I shouldn't write, but can't resist. Does anybody ever notice these threads are always about "training contracts" not "employment contracts". The sole consideration provided by the employer is the FAR mandated training to the employee. There is no guarantee of compensation nor continued employment. Some employers even have the gumption to require employees to sign training contracts for recurrent training. I don't think much of it.

 

[Kingairrick]

The subject of training contracts came up one day while I was flying with my CP. He said: "I don't get training contracts. I have to send every pilot to school twice a year anyway. It doesn't matter whose name is on the training slot. It all cost about the same. Why should I keep someone here if they want to leave?"

 

[squadronB52]

Dear Fellow Pilots,

Thank you so much for your support, and anyone else that has interest in this important topic, I would greatly appreciate your input too

I am a very hardworking, diligent worker, with high morals and values. I'm also both a positive and fun person to fly with and do off duty activities as well.

I have an amazing and interesting story to share to all those interested, and bot just about training costs ... and will submit that to the groups soon, but not quite yet , for I am taking part in a possible lawsuit offense/defense

Hopefully it will be one that many fellow pilots can think about and really learn from, as well !

All my best, squadronB52

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Dear Fellow Pilots,

Thank you so much for your support, and anyone else that has interest in this important topic, I would greatly appreciate your input too

I am a very hardworking, diligent worker, with high morals and values. I'm also both a positive and fun person to fly with and do off duty activities as well.

I have an amazing and interesting story to share to all those interested, and bot just about training costs ... and will submit that to the groups soon, but not quite yet , for I am taking part in a possible lawsuit offense/defense

Hopefully it will be one that many fellow pilots can think about and really learn from, as well !

All my best, squadronB52

How soon will you be sharing this information? The suspense is killing me.

 

[Corona]

Dear Fellow Pilots,

Thank you so much for your support, and anyone else that has interest in this important topic, I would greatly appreciate your input too

I am a very hardworking, diligent worker, with high morals and values. I'm also both a positive and fun person to fly with and do off duty activities as well.

I have an amazing and interesting story to share to all those interested, and bot just about training costs ... and will submit that to the groups soon, but not quite yet , for I am taking part in a possible lawsuit offense/defense

Hopefully it will be one that many fellow pilots can think about and really learn from, as well !

All my best, squadronB52

I'm sensing an imminent tale where you are/were trying to weasel out of a training contract. (J/K)

I signed an agreement once; it wasn't for very much, and I didn't plan on leaving the company during the time period.

I'm not going to flame pilots who sign them, nor will I necessarily criticize someone who leaves before the contract is up without paying. However, in retrospect, I think any pilot should READ the contract and certainly have an attorney review and possibly revise it. A contract is by definition an agreement between two or more parties. If someone is shoving some turd contract down your throat and dangling a job as a chaser, it isn't much of an agreement, is it?

Any contract should have poison pills; ie, family emergency, ilnesses, acceptable treatment by the employer (specifically spelling out work duties & pay,time-off, etc). If one of these comes up, or the company weasels, the contract is nullified.

BTW, I had a co-pilot once who did this for another operator; had his attorney re-write the contract. He sent it to the chief pilot with an explanation. Never heard back from them, even though they'd offered him the job.

Hopefully it goes without saying that you should ALWAYS be willing to walk from a job offer.

C

PS: Nice thread resurrection!

 

[squadronB52]

....

For the last replier :

You "thought" incorrectly. And judging someone, and also using that particular phraseology, that you know absolutely nothing about, shows alot about you, and your prejudiced way of thinking, sir/maa'am.

I am a really hard worker and have been committed to doing an outstanding job. I do not want to go into much detail yet, because I am going into litigation I hope very soon.

Suffice it to say,my employer, who has already gone through more than 1 or 2 pilots in the past, to say the least.... has sued others, and lost in California, which is an "At will' state. He also has, in my and others' opinion, extremely "questionable" business practices in many regards. He has not only illegally withheld paychecks (and hopefully heavily fined by the Labor Dept.), in the past, but even tried to withhold his VP's retirement somehow, and failed.

After, ferrying one of his newly sold, mid size jets to the depths of Angola ... a Category "5", dangerous place to fly into and stay... also greatly facilitating the sale of one if his airplanes, I contend that he dis-regarded his verbal agreement of re-imbersable expenses to me; I am out several thousand dollars, and when I complained to my immediate supervisor (who has all the while agreed with me on all issues...), the employer found out about it (yes, it was a strongly worded angry email...), and in retalitation, and in large "ego-ness", fired me. Boom, after almost 2 years of hard work, getting sick as hell in Angola, and other things that will go not mentioned here.

Ofcourse, now he is saving $$ on having to pay an FO, as he is also trying to sell out his airplanes, and in tough economic times.

Now he has threatened me, through one of his lawyers (he has tons of dough ...) to go after "25,000 in training costs, if I sue him in small claims court for the money, I believe he rightfully owes me ... and I neither did I do anything "grossly" wrong, nor did I quit !

Not only that, but even if these bogus, "training contracts", were held up in a court of law, especially in California .....where, I understand they are not, but ...

a) I never quit b) The first recurrent was 11 months ago, so at 12,500, that would be only $1041.00 ; and the second recurrent (which I didn't even have to take, because I am an FO, and only need to do once a year.... but my Capt wanted me as his sim partner...) was 6 months ago, and that, pro-rated would only have $7000.00 left on it, as it cost them 14,000. So, 8041.00, and he is obviously trying to bulldog me by threatening to "go after me" for 25K. ( Add to that, that I found out he really used a "training slot" for the first recurrent , that went with one of the other airplanes he is selling, and never paid out of pocket..... )

Hows that for the tip of the iceberg on this employer, and sad situation on the part of him ?

p.s "youmustbe joking" sums up "trainoing costs" really well ... he/she rocks !! "

 

[Corona]

^Well, at least you didn't lose your position over not having a sense of humor.

Good luck out on the final frontier.

C

 

[squadronB52]

Sorry Corona

Corrona,

Ok, you were being light hearted I apologize for sounding harsh then, as I was still bitter at a quite un-expected job loss ! I also feel a little better now, after getting sick from my little ordeal in Luanda, Angola, and what had happened with this former employer, while I was trying to get home safely.

Let us hope that the energies some individuals put out to the Universe, will flow back to them someday ....

My the force be with you to !! Star Trek "Entrerprise" fan?? That's me, in the middle of the two aliens ... pretty scary stuff !

Sincerely, squadronB52

 

[NW_Pilot]

For the last replier :

After, ferrying one of his newly sold, mid size jets to the depths of Angola ... a Category "5", dangerous place to fly into and stay... also greatly facilitating the sale of one if his airplanes, I contend that he dis-regarded his verbal agreement of re-imbersable expenses to me; I am out several thousand dollars, and when I complained to my immediate supervisor (who has all the while agreed with me on all issues...), the employer found out about it (yes, it was a strongly worded angry email...), and in retalitation, and in large "ego-ness", fired me. Boom, after almost 2 years of hard work, getting sick as hell in Angola, and other things that will go not mentioned here.

I understand, Try going to Angola in a PA28!!! I am not a fearful person but that place can be down right scary and filthy also. I would rather fly in to Iraq or North Korea than go back to that place again.

 

[tbmpilot]

Any chance they told him the (unpaid) training would take a week or two, during which time he would be spending his own time studying and waiting around for someone to be available to train him, but ended up spending a month waiting (unpaid) and on his own dime? That would be pretty common. What about HIS time, HIS expectations of being treated fairly? What is that worth?

That is so funny (and true) that it's sad LOL