Emirates incident @ Melbourne?

[Cpt. Underpants]

The aircraft was an A340-500. Having flown the A330, A340-300 and A340-600 (PIC) - yes there are some numbers that should have stuck and they (the operating crew) probably knew them. They were exhausted. Normal TEM strategies didn't work or weren't recognised because they were knackered - A common state for EK crew?

It's a business and EK want to make money. Reducing layovers is not just an EK issue, its' worldwide. IFALPA need to address the issue as a matte of urgency or the next crew won't be so lucky.

Yes, firewalling the thrust levers in a bus will give you TOGA, but when you do that is a tricky issue - were they using FLEX (assumed temp) or DERATE (where Vmca issues rear their head)? Firewalling the thrust levers in a DERATE T/O compromises controllability in the event of an engine failure.

Long range Airbi don't have stellar take off performance anyway. The A343 is a dog. A heavy A345 is almost as bad.

A FLEX T/O will often give you "marginal" take off performance and "guaging" acceleration isn't easy. Try and youtube or google an A343 getting airborne out of JNB or LPB for example. Perhaps the next generation of aircraft (787?) will incorporate some sort of "how goes it" indication in the EFIS...

 

[F/O]

People make mistakes. Isn't there some kind of a rule of thumb so you can see you haven't made a gross error? In the 727 it's half the weight over 100K for V1, plus 12 knots for V2 (or something like that.)

I'm not saying this happened here, but people are getting completely reliant on the FMS these days, just like they are completely reliant on the autothrust and autopilot. Rules of thumb have gone out the window for some people. I've seen people 20 miles from a crossing restriction reach down to put it in the box...like they've forgotten about the 3/1 rule or something.

That goes for the initial programming, too. Some people think that if the box gives you a number, then that's the number, and they don't think about the entries they made that could have caused that number. Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[overseas boy]

Just need to rewire whatever necessary, fly unpressurized (ETOPS could be a problem though to find islands to hop across all the way from Melbourne to Toluse, ops check ok!

ETOPs will be no problem!!!

 

[typhoonpilot]

There are a lot of factors involved in this accident. Not the least of which is that Emirates pilots fly the A330-200, A340-300, and A340-500 as a single type. Three completely different models with completely different weights and speeds. It's not unusual for a crew to fly the A340-500 only once every three months. If they are used to the lower weights of the A330-200 and A340-300 then there isn't really a mental trigger to back them up with the weight, flap, and speed setting on a heavy weight A340-500 take-off.

It's a business and EK want to make money. Reducing layovers is not just an EK issue, its' worldwide. IFALPA need to address the issue as a matte of urgency or the next crew won't be so lucky.

Amen !!



Typhoonpilot

 

[TSA145]

Yes, firewalling the thrust levers in a bus will give you TOGA, but when you do that is a tricky issue - were they using FLEX (assumed temp) or DERATE (where Vmca issues rear their head)? Firewalling the thrust levers in a DERATE T/O compromises controllability in the event of an engine failure.

Long range Airbi don't have stellar take off performance anyway. The A343 is a dog. A heavy A345 is almost as bad.

Emirates does not allow DERATE take offs on the Airbus, only D1/D2 climb thrust.

 

[727gm]

There are a lot of factors involved in this accident. Not the least of which is that Emirates pilots fly the A330-200, A340-300, and A340-500 as a single type. Three completely different models with completely different weights and speeds. It's not unusual for a crew to fly the A340-500 only once every three months. If they are used to the lower weights of the A330-200 and A340-300 then there isn't really a mental trigger to back them up with the weight, flap, and speed setting on a heavy weight A340-500 take-off.

As different as the contrast, on any given large type aircraft, between high, hot, max gross weight takeoff versus empty, low fuel-load, ferry leg?