Don't put your aircraft on Charter!

[heywatchthis]

I am trying to convince a potential aircraft owner, NOT to put his aircraft on charter. He has a late model Hawker 800XP, and do to the high cost he feels he has to put it on a charter management, to dilute some of the high fixed cost.

I think this is a horrible idea, but need more facts about why it's a bad idea. All the charter companies out there have great misleading facts about why its such a great idea.

So, why is it a bad idea to put a late model Jet on charter certificate?

THANKS

 

[Gatorman]

I have worked at a 135 company on the maintenance end of the business and all I can offer is purely opinion.
I do not know of ANY 135 company that is willing to come off the wallet to bring in someone with good or better qualifying experience to work on the aircraft. i.e., most of them are hiring in contractors to perform the maintenance or have found some techs that will do or sign off anything that the management pressures them to doing to make the departure.

I have spent many years as a lead mech on corporate aircraft and when an aircraft comes in that has been on a 135 cert, I see nothing but dollar signs. The profit I make off of fixing someone else's bubble gum and duct tape repair is like going from eating a jam sandwitch to eating a Porterhouse steak.

Flip side...boss man is saving a bunch of money by having the management team keep the plane flying as cheep as possible (maintenance cost per flight hour) and he is getting a little kickback when he is not flying around in it.

 

[EBM3]

It sounds like the owner can't really afford the airplane. I was involved in a similar setup. At best we were just trading dollars, i.e. making no profit on the charters, especially when the trips came from brokers.

Much better to let it be known that the owner has time available on the plane and will sell its availability in 25, 50 or 100 hour increments to 4 - 6 carefully screened users.

I wonder if the owner has really calculated his largest expense, which is the lost income he doesn't get because of the money buried in just purchasing the thing. Of course, that cost of ownership is there when buying any asset.

Good luck.

 

[deadstick]

Micklin you ol' son of a....bet you still think they are YOUR planes.

 

[cjdriver]

Suggest he look at selling shares of the aircraft to some qualified buyers.

 

[Corona]

So, why is it a bad idea to put a late model Jet on charter certificate?

THANKS

The pax you will carry will trash the interior, the airplane will not be available when the owner wants it etc, etc, etc. I've seen all of it. Let the charter crowd fly in a crotchety old Lear with a vintage 80's interior. No one will notice the food ground into the shag carpet.

Alternately, you could go with what EBM3 recommends. You have to screen customers carefully when you have an expensive newer aircraft at stake.

Sounds like your owner may have gotten in over his head with the airplane purchase. That happens a lot, too.

C

 

[TGTVS]

Dude, Let Him/her Do What They Want To Do And Let Them Screw It Up For Themselves, Don't Try To Be The Hero, Cause In The End You Can Say I Told You So!!! It Is What It Is, Your Right

 

[Publishers]

It is not a bad idea == depends on many issues and his personal situation. I disagree on the maintenance issue, the owner is paying for the maintenance and there is no reason to skimp. Anything of significance we take to the manuafacture service center.

 

[hawkerjet]

You better be aware of the upcoming changes in operational control that will severely handcuff your owner( op specs A008). It appears that all flights done with an aircraft that is on a 135 cert will have to be conducted under 135 regs. The reasoning behind this is that if the boss is out on a Part 91 flight the 135 cert holder loses operational control because it is being conducted under part 91 regs. This also opened up a can of worms with some POI's and PMI's stating that if a flight goes out with the owner part 91, then you lose operational control, and one step further..... They argue that the aircraft then becomes unconformed and will need a new conformity check to bring it back into 135 status.
You and I both know that each FSDO will interpret this differently, but that has already been bantered around my FSDO (VNY). Either way you're going to need a large bottle of aspirin.
Good Luck

 

[Gatorman]

Micklin you ol' son of a....bet you still think they are YOUR planes.

Snot-nose college boy. Hehehhe...glad somebody 'get's it'



BTW....even if you do wind up 'trading money' putting it on the 135. You will not get the resell value out of it you would have if you kept it in your own hangar. The hours alone on the aircraft will lill the value.

 

[ElCid88]

I went through this with my last company. Several 135/management companies swore that we would make a profit. I did the numbers and they just didn't add up so I asked the 135 company to guarantee us "X" amount of profit per month. Of course they wouldn't. So my company could see right there that the 135 company was full of it. What I have found over the years is that when your company starts asking about ways to off-set their costs on the airplane they probably can't afford it, and they either sell the aircraft outright or move down to something less costly. I am not saying this is your situation, but this is how it has always panned out for me. Hopefully you will find a plan that will work.

 

[Lownslo]

You better be aware of the upcoming changes in operational control that will severely handcuff your owner( op specs A008). It appears that all flights done with an aircraft that is on a 135 cert will have to be conducted under 135 regs.

Charge the owner a buck or two. Good to go.

 

[willNOTfly4free]

The pax you will carry will trash the interior, the airplane will not be available when the owner wants

I partly agree with this statement. The aircraft owner has to release his/her aircraft to be used for a chartered flight. This is done for every charter trip. It's not like the aircraft will be flying charters 24/7 without the owner's approval and/or knowledge.

As far as trashing the interior, I don't know about that. My company has several a/c on a charter certificate and a few that are not. You cannot tell by looking in the cabins which ones fly charters and which ones don't. And we even have an old MU300 with its original shag carpeted headliner.

 

[mike1mc]

There are some good points here and also some misleading ones. I agree there are some REALLY bad 135 operators out there, but there are also some decent ones that care about their owners. I don't understand why maintenance should be an issue. If the owner wants good maintenance then he should be ready to pay for it, end of story. Find a reputable management company to take care of the plane.

I will agree that putting a plane on certificate has its bad points as previously mentioned:

1) Additional hours on the airframe (could be bad when plane is sold)
2) Interior will be worn quicker
3) Scheduling conflicts (unless he has a schedule in advance).

As far as 135 Ops Specs A008, not all flights need to operate under 135, its just to make sure that the operator is in full control and not letting another company or individual call the shots. I think its about time the FAA made a stand on this issue. I would become familair with these changes as it may be a deal-breaker because of the things that will not be allowed (i.e. both pilots paid by the owner).

 

[WMUSIGPI]

How bout because the pilots don't want to give up the nice cushy corporate schedule for being on call all the time for a charter outfit, Being pressured to go rather than trusted with the decision not to, all for the same or probably even less than they were making.

 

[icefr8dawg]

Did you ever think about doing the certificate for the owner. Around here managment companies get $5,000 a month for an 800XP. If you managed the gig you could turn away all the annoying road shows and Peoria overnights for the good work. Also, all you need are the beginings of a certificate to not pay sales/use tax on the plane.

 

[mike1mc]

Did you ever think about doing the certificate for the owner. Around here managment companies get $5,000 a month for an 800XP. If you managed the gig you could turn away all the annoying road shows and Peoria overnights for the good work. Also, all you need are the beginings of a certificate to not pay sales/use tax on the plane.

This arrangement could work out very well. You (or the owner) choose the trips and the operator or management company oversees the operation. Be careful about the sales tax issue. Most states require that you just be on a 135 cert, but some require 50% charter.

 

[Freight Dog]

Did you ever think about doing the certificate for the owner. Around here managment companies get $5,000 a month for an 800XP. If you managed the gig you could turn away all the annoying road shows and Peoria overnights for the good work. Also, all you need are the beginings of a certificate to not pay sales/use tax on the plane.

Actually, you can get away without paying the sales tax if more than 50% of your trips are out-of-state. Just be very meticulous and account for every hour when you submit your tax exemption paperwork.

 

[Publishers]

Depending on where you are, getting your own certificate can take a year or more. The world of 135 for jets especially has really changed over the last three years.