Does how you did in college really matter

[pilotyip]

You have to decide on what you want to be a college graduate or a pilot. If is a pilot, you fly airplanes and build resume stuff. It will take approximately 10 years to get to a career position in aviation. You have to commit to the time frame to make it. To not fly and get a degree may be fun but it does nothing for your flying career. Now to get a degree on the side while you are flying, nothing wrong with that. However, the fallback value of a degree is greatly over rated. I have a BS and a Master's in Management, but at age 53, I was making $250/wk loading cargo. After Zantop pretended to go out of went out of business in 1997, I had been a temporary High School Chemistry Teacher up until two weeks before the cargo job came along. However, they do not teach school in the summer so I had to take the cargo job. The value of an unused degree is highly over rated. 53 year old unemployed airline pilots are not eagerly greeted in any industry that I know of, even of having a couple degrees. Of course, I did not apply for many of the "College degree preferred jobs" such as apt manager, telephone direct sales, and plumbing floor manager at Home Depot, etc. If you get a college degree you have to use, the knowledge gained in college to develop a career or the degree is useless. After getting a degree, flying an airplane is not a knowledge expanding experience; it is skill development experience. Anyone care to chime in and share their experiences on entering the non-aviation job market after being out of college 20-30 years?

 

[pilotyip]

Forged; cool logo, looks just like the one on the fender of my 66 Conv. There are many ways to get an education besides college, military, trade schools, and on-the-job. We have had a majority of our non-college 121 check airman get on with major airlines. Part 121 TJ PIC will give you the same advantage as a college degree except at five airlines. However, there is a definite basis that the only path to the cockpit is through a 4-yr degree. That does not reflect reality of who is being hired at SWA, JB and AirTran.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Yip

I have the "reverese" for you. I didn't even know I could be a pilot coming out of high school (stupid advisors!) So I spent 3 years at State earning one degree, then found out I could be a pilot, spent another 3 years at UND earing my ratings and yet another degree. Now here I sit with a pretty good job, good QOL, ok pay, etc etc. I did it all by going to college first (twice mind you!) and I am still in a good position. If I had followed your advice (not saying it is bad, just making a point) I would most likely be a furloughed Indy Air Capt, (I hope all you Indy guys make out ok!) or a displaced Eagle Capt. I wouldn't be at any major, maybe AirTran or JB, but those I don't want to be at either. Everything happens for a reason and everyones path is different but ultimately leads to the same goal, PERSONAL SATISFACTION.

You have a good "line" for an argument about college, but I believe it is misplaced. Of course it does not take a college degree to fly an airplane, any monkey can do that, just ask Haulingthemail :nuts: . It is stupid that some airlines won't interview or hire someone without a degree or someone with X amount of hours of helo time (helicopters are worthless by the way ) but no one said life was fair. If going to school and earning a degree gives me an advantage over someone who has been flying for a year or two before me, gee lemme thinkg, what should I do? By advantage I mean landing a job because of my degree and not how many hours I spend in the pattern or doing the same FSD to MSP run for a year.

I had a chance to go to Ameriflight, AirNet, and a couple of other cargo outfits and I really think those would have hurt me in the long run. Not beause they are bad companies or the experience(s) would have been bad, but because I would have had to move my family all over the country. Having a good flying job is about a hell of a lot more than equipement, pay and days off. The biggest thing is how much of that QOL do you get to spend with your family (for us family types) and if I had taken your cookie cutter route I wouldn't have what I have today THANK GOD!

/rant over

 

[inline]

Interviewed with a major carrier in the 80s all they wanted to see was the degree certificate itself. No transcripts.

 

[buttercup]

Forged; cool logo, looks just like the one on the fender of my 66 Conv. There are many ways to get an education besides college, military, trade schools, and on-the-job. We have had a majority of our non-college 121 check airman get on with major airlines. Part 121 TJ PIC will give you the same advantage as a college degree except at five airlines. However, there is a definite basis that the only path to the cockpit is through a 4-yr degree. That does not reflect reality of who is being hired at SWA, JB and AirTran.

Too bad they didnt offer degrees in "Self Worth" or "What pilots really deserved to be paid" or "100K isnt alot of money even though Pilotyp thinks it is"!

 

[pilotyip]

As214, it is relative if you have never made $100K is a great number. I believe the real world would tend to agree with this. If you once made $200K and got used to living on it might seem not so good. Only on the pilot board would $100K be sneered at as a property wage. Few people are as lucky as pilots who love to fly airplanes and are paid to do something them love. The rest of the world would be jealous. I am perfectly content, I am doing well, I am still living my dream from 58 years ago when at 5 years old. I decided I wanted to be a pilot. Trailer says it all.

 

[pilotyip]

DC-8, can not help it. I have to stand up my helo heros. Someone has to figure out why non helo guys and uninformed management knuckleheads don't view a multi-crew Captain time in an advanced IFR helo like the H-60, H-46, H-53 or H-47 as not real flight time. However, PIC in a VFR only C-150 in the traffic pattern is the breakfast of champions for an airline career. We have hired many military rotor heads and I have never been disappointed with their performance in training or on-line. Why are most management and insurance company’s sooooo out of touch with reality? Ops I am sorry I was management bashing again.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Everything matters, in one way or another.

Say you're at a party, and you're supposed to meet a certain girl, and end up marrying her, having a family, etc. However, you know deep down that you don't really want to meet her, because you know how hard it's been in the past to get along with her, and you dread the thought of spending this whole life with her.

So, your subconscious intentionally pushes you to drink so much and do something stupid, so you break your arm and have to go to the hospital, missing your meeting with the woman scheduled to be your wife.

You go through this life a different way, and you're so relieved you didn't have to deal with that woman. Then, you die, and you find out what you did. GREAT! Instead of getting away with something, you find out you have to go back and try all over again to meet the woman, marry her, etc.

The more you try and resist your "density" (Back To The Future), the worse it gets each time.

So, the moral of the story? Be a man, face your fears, and try your best. In the end of this life, you'll be much more satisfied.

Good luck to you!

cliff
YIP

PS-Groundhog Day is a great movie!

 

[pilotyip]

cliff, you have been up too long, what did you say?

 

[Guitar Guy]

I haven't been asked much about my degree, which is in aeronautical engineering, in any interview I've had. Boeing probably asked a bit but AA didn't ask anything about it that I recall. AA was more interested in my Boeing background. When I took the plunge and started my flying career, neither the commuter I flew for nor NetJets asked much about my degree.

As for "going to college vs. flying for living", I'm very glad to have the background that I do. The years I spent at my desk, while not as fun as flying, did give me a world of background that I wouldn't have had otherwise.

 

[CaptainMark]

Pilot Careers
Qualifications

Typical qualifications for consideration as a FedEx pilot.

• Commercial Pilot Certificate with Multi-engine and Instrument rating (without limitations)
• Current ATP Certificate or written
• Current FE Turbojet Rating or written (FEX or Basic/turbojet)
• Must pass FAA mandated drug screen
• Recency and type of experience is considered
• Meet requirements for and currently hold First Class Medical certification
• College Degree from an accredited college or university
• Eligibility for rapid visa issuance, issued by offices in the United States to fly to any FedEx destination.
• Ability to obtain clearance from United States Postal Service for handling or access to U.S. mail, which includes FBI fingerprint check, and candidate must have resided in the United States for the last five consecutive years (except for U.S. military assignments)
• Eligibility for issuance of US Security Clearance
• 1500 hours total fixed-wing time as pilot-in-command (PIC) or second-in-command in multi-engine turbo-prop A/C or jet A/C or combination thereof, including a minimum of 1000 hours total fixed-wing pilot-in-command in multi-engine turbo prop A/C or jet A/C or combination thereof.
  Note: PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls.
  Note: FedEx considers only pilot time in fixed wing aircraft toward minimum qualifications. This does not include simulator, helicopter, flight engineer, bombardier, navigator, RIO, EWO, WSO, NFO, or Special Crew.
• All certificates and ratings required to be U.S.A. FAA issued

there it is in black and white...get it!

 

[pilotyip]

Yes FedEx is one of the college degree only airlines out there. But I think there is better change of college degree pilot being turned down by FedEx than there is of a non-degreed guy being turned down by JB, SWA, or AirTran. Some airlines do not let the absence of a degree stand in the way of hiring the right pilot. FedEx in its early days could have cared less about a college degree, I know a guy who went there in 1975 he was a NavCad.

 

[CaptainMark]

the only reason i posted that was to show that the degree is used to dwindle down the list of applicants..i have flown with guys at a previous job were were awesome aviators and did not go to college...i also know many guys that don't have college and are working other places..now if there was a shortage obviously that would be one of the quals that might disappear...but it is a requirement and if you have the means to get one ..you should..that's all

 

[800Dog]

Yes FedEx is one of the college degree only airlines out there. But I think there is better change of college degree pilot being turned down by FedEx than there is of a non-degreed guy being turned down by JB, SWA, or AirTran.

What? I am in the wrong line of work!

 

[SiuDude]

So...I'm pretty much in charrrrrge of this jet now!

Capt'n Sink Rate, is that you?

 

[FN FAL]

The more you try and resist your "density" (Back To The Future), the worse it gets each time.

Resist "density"? Carl Brashear, is that you?

 

[bestpilot]

I wouldn't be at any major, maybe AirTran or JB, but those I don't want to be at either.
/rant over

Duuuuuude, duuuude, duuude!

Are you sniffin magic markers, or what? I guess you be like one a them cats that like marches to their own like drummer boy and stuff.

Da Blue and Da Tranny are like freaking different, but both are like freaking ree-hee-heelie good places to work, my brother from some uddder planetarian mother!

So, I gots to know....inquiring minds want to know, Duude, I WANT TO KNOW!!!!

Here's like what we da peeps want to know....Dude, if you don't be wantin da Blue or Da Tranny, then what job is like da job dat YOU are looking for?

Oh, yeeaaahh, gimmie some a dat magic marker, duude, I dig dat smell!

 

[bestpilot]

I'd like to personally thank the Moderators for allowing us the use of the IGNORE feature. Thank you.TC

Duuude, you just GOTS to get hired by da Tranny, cause I gots to fly wit you, bro and like get you some brewskis and help you to be like chillin!

Dude, I like NEVER ignore any of dem peeps on ole Flightinfo. You peeps are like the only family I gots!!!!

 

[FlyAuburn]

Duuude, you just GOTS to get hired by da Tranny, cause I gots to fly wit you, bro and like get you some brewskis and help you to be like chillin!

Dude, I like NEVER ignore any of dem peeps on ole Flightinfo. You peeps are like the only family I gots!!!!

bestpilot,
Dude, You crack me up! The only time I laugh on flightinfo is when I read your posts. Please keep em coming and always keep the good attitude. Definately nice to read positive comments.
About this thread - yeah, just go to Auburn, chase the ladies, and fly some on the side when you're sober. Don't forget to ride the beacon and get yo freak on, on runway 36!
Gotta have the degree. Grades? Just don't fail your classes.

 

[buttercup]

I bet P Diddy and Bill Gates really regret not getting that college degree.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

AU-1984. Todd Storey was one of my instructors.

Cliff
YIP

 

[RP170]

I don't think it really matters how you did in school. I personally was the salutatorian of my high school class. Went to the Air Force Academy till I damaged a nerve in my shoulder. Was medically discharged and then went to Riddle. Graduated with a 4.0 there and am now on my third regional in about as many years of being in the industry. I think it's more luck of the draw as to where you were hired to start with and not how well you did in school. Unfortunately, I've been at the wrong places at the wrong times.

 

[Bringupthebird]

There was a time when the airline job was so good, the airlines could be selective and one way was a college degree requirement (and 20/20 vision and being male was another). But one day a fellow named Frank Lorenzo woke up and saw the future of aviation and it didn't include overpaid pilots college grad or not.

At one time, the airline's philosophy was, "we're going to teach you to fly our way anyhow" (in fact Eastern used to have an Aero Commander to get single-engine jet guys their multi-engine rating). There was a pride in their operation and they chose who was eligible to get one of the best careers in the world. Then they progressively made the job less technically demanding (the Airbus which is designed to save the passengers from their pilot) and less financially rewarding ('nuff said). Now the entry-level job (or it's equivalent) is likely the one most pilots will be facing for their entire careers. They get hired at Pinnacle or some place with 500TT but due to the shrinking number of mainline jobs, there is nowhere for them to aspire to and there they sit with their stepping stone jammed up their butt. But it's a shiny new jet with a teeny tiny paycheck.

So study something in school that you really love, give the flying thing a shot and then go back and be successful, maybe discover a derivitive of Prozac that is legal to fly with!

 

[Mugs]

If the Airbus was truly designed to save the pax from the pilots by reducing technical demands as you say, what happened in that Gulf Air accident a few years ago? Oh yeah, they couldn't figure out the technical side of things to save their.....

 

[Bringupthebird]

The Airbus isn't crash-proof, but it doesn't rely as heavily on valued skills that justified selectivity and demanded the pay rates of the aircraft of years gone by.


(I had a much more detailed reply that got zapped by the posting button,doggone it!)

 

[Mugs]

Some might argue that those with good stick and rudder skills that were baffled by the complexities of a glass cockpit --- and in some cases bid around it as the career permitted -- didn't deserve the payrates you are talking about. If you get to the point in the Airbus where you feel uncomfortable manually flying an ILS without autothrottles to low mins, then you are a victim of your own prolonged laziness. The old skills still apply.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Some might argue that those with good stick and rudder skills that were baffled by the complexities of a glass cockpit --- and in some cases bid around it as the career permitted -- didn't deserve the payrates you are talking about. If you get to the point in the Airbus where you feel uncomfortable manually flying an ILS without autothrottles to low mins, then you are a victim of your own prolonged laziness. The old skills still apply.

The point is that the Airbus was designed to be flown in full automation which either makes it flyable for the inexperienced or boring for the accomplished. The Airbus is only complex to those who haven't flown it or refuse to dig enough into it's systems to thoroughly understand it (or at least convince yourself you have).

The Airbus has employed protections that, for example, override stick inputs to avoid overspeeding. It limits bank angle and automatically applies TOGA thrust if it senses a critical angle of bank is being approached. All these things are predicated on an inept pilot getting himself into a situation he shouldn't. Predictive Windshear technology eliminates the need for judgement to avoid departing into windshear since the box tells you not to. The synthetic voice will tell you to "RETARD" the trust levers on an autoland, but the thrust is already retarded, you are simply putting the levers where it wants. If you want to put the gear down at too high a speed, too bad it won't let you (with the gear handle). The point is that an Airbus could very likely be operated competently by an ab-initio pilot trained only in the Airbus. He has no need for an understanding of carburetor heat or true course lines on a sectional. 20 hours in the sim would be more productive than 1000 hours of shooting touch and goes in a C-152. And this fact is not lost on those who hire and negotiate pay rates for Airbus pilots.

I think that these technologies probably contribute to safety and have some value. I don't think you should avoid safety equipment out of respect for the pilot's ego. The Airbus was designed with the worst case scenario pilot in mind. The airline executives see this as an opportunity to allow technology to offset experience which in the past came at a high price. The Gulf Air accident was an example of someone getting so far behind the airplane that he became the forewardmost passenger. Had he operated the airplane in full automation (if that was possible given ATC restraints, etc.) the accident likely would not have happened. An otherwise unacceptable level of flying skill would have gone unnoticed.

So getting back to the point of this thread, the profession may not need experienced pilots, let alone college educated ones given the direction that technology has gone.