Difference of FAA and JAA ATPL?

[Maggie]

Can any one provide info on what the difference is between the standards US FAA ATP and the JAA ATPL. How does a US pilot obtain one if he already has an ATP?

Thanks

 

[Flywrite]

If you have a lot of experience in something big (I think 1500 in a crew operated ac over 20,000Kg) the process isnt too bad. I think a couple of written tests and checkrides.

If you dont have the above experience...well then it just gets ridiculous. It may actually be easier to go to law school, get into government, then get onto a congressional panel to negotiate a change in the conversion process than to actually go through the process.

Seriously though, last I checked it was 18 written tests, with requirement for a large number of hours of classroom time then several checkrides. From what I have heard you should plan about 6 months (full time) and $15-20,000 for the process.

Go over to pprune.com, they may have more info on it. Ther was a rumor of a new, easier conversion a few months ago, but I havent seen anything further on it.

If you find out anything different let me know

Good Luck

 

[OrphicSeth]

I've somewhat heard the same thing. Very annoying, and expensive, and of course, if you flunk out, start all over. It's really too bad, because there's a couple of outfits in Europe that I'd like to really work for. In time, maybe.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Converting to a JAA ATPL licence



Option 1



Hold 1500hrs of which 500hrs is in FAR25 or FAR23 certified multi crew aircraft, of which you need 250hrs in any aircraft type as PIC or 100 PIC under supervision

Hold a medical class 1 JAA


Pass ALL 14 ATPL exams


Undertake training as recommended by a Approved schools Chief Ground Instructor (in other words you can do it quickly or over a long time, you have no requirement to sit through the 770 hr long course)


Undertake a type rating course at a JAA approved training provider


Complete a ATPL skills test with a United Kingdom CAA examiner

So in summary you can do it this way to get rid of the 770hr (IOW > 1 year!) classroom requirement if you have the experience and do the type rating and flight test on a FAR25 or 23 type aircraft.



Option 2



If you hold 500 hrs multi crew experience on a FAR 25 /23 type, hold a type rating on that type, and will be doing your ATPL skills test on that type you are exempt from the Type rating course and doing any type of training for the ground examinations, you can simply just enter and sit them without any help, then go and do the skills test.



Option 3



Special terms for Pilots meeting the experience criteria below have been agreed as an interim measure for the grant of the above licence until the Joint Aviation Authority have agreed appropriate new conversion terms.



A minimum of 3,000 hours as pilot of public transport aircraft over 30,000 kgs MTWA on scheduled international or similar routes, a minimum of 1,500 hours of which must have been as Pilot-in-Command.



The restriction to fly UK registered aircraft only, may be removed when the final terms have been agreed, subject to any additional requirements being completed.



To apply for a written assessment you will require a ‘JAR-FCL 680 pack’. The form enclosed in this pack should be fully completed and returned to this office together with a fee of £77.00, your actual logbooks and your non-UK licence with the validating medical certificate. This form may be downloaded from the web in the near future.



We endeavor to complete written assessment terms within the published turnaround time of 10 working days providing all supporting documentation has been submitted. At this point you may submit application for the required written examinations.



Option 3 is rarely used.



Option 4



Now of course you may not have any of the above requirements, then you will need to complete a Ground school course, undertake the examinations, and then complete the Commercial Skills test and complete a 15hr conversion course for a Instrument rating following by the Instrument rating skills test.

 

[mobie]

After you have done one of the above you will have to obtain the right to work and abode in the EU. The bright side is after spending all of that time in the EU you will have found someone to marry there and that will short the time it takes to get the right to work and abode.

 

[Kream926]

If you dont have the above experience...well then it just gets ridiculous. It may actually be easier to go to law school, get into government, then get onto a congressional panel to negotiate a change in the conversion process than to actually go through the process.

Funniest thing i have ever heard.......

 

[Maggie]

Thanks for all of your help!!!

 

[Flyingdutchman]

The FAA and JAA have been talking for years now to lighten thinks up. The only ones preventing this from happening are the France.. They want to keep it next to impossible to make a transition from FAA to JAA ATPL easy.. BS, and to bad if you ask me.

However, if they make it easier to get your FAA ATP converted to a JAA ATPL, more students (obviously) will come to the US to do their training, so a lot of European flight schools will go out of business, and local governments will also lose a lot of money.

My personal thoughts are that if someone has a ICAO ATP (1500+ hours TT), each and every country should accept his license (or let him take only 1 or 2 written exams and/or checkrides) therefore only the experienced pilots would benefit from it.

 

[OleGuy]

From what I understand (according to a couple of Euopean employment professionals I talked to) is that the JAA license is not a problem. The problem lies (as Mobie referred to) in getting a "right to work in the EU" or equivilent of a "green card" over here. For non EU peole in professions that there is not a shortage (read pilots), the card is near impossible to obtain. This is only applicable in EU agreement countries and does not include the Middle and Far East.

 

[Tinstaafl]

Conceptually the emphasis is different 'twixt JAR & US.

US *tends* to be more focused on demonstrating certain defined skills in the air ie those items specified in the PTS, in addition to a comprehensive ground component to a flight test ('check ride'). The theory exams in the US are generally considered a bit of a joke in JAR & Australia. For example when I did it, the US flight planning component of the Part 121 ATP exam gave the fuel burn for climb & descent & used a single fuel flow for the entire route. Not really representative of sectorised fuel consumption in that class of aircraft. However the type rating system in the US compensates with in-depth knowledge about a particular a/c & its systems.


JAR (or in my case UK just prior to JAR implementation) exams tend towards the minute & esoteric detail about the engineering design principles behind a/c equipment & operation, not all of which is relevent to the pilot. Anyone ever found a need for knowing the frequency/colour of an RLG? It's not as if you can decide that you'd like to have a different colour laser today to match the co-pilot's eyes....

Or how about the excruciating detail of the Tokyo & Chicago conventions....but not practical things such as whether or not one needs an instrument rating to fly IFR (Ans: no, you don't if you're in Class G airspace - at least in the UK. Any man & his dog can be IFR with or without an instrument rating as long as the PIC conforms to the met. limits of his licence level/ratings held/airspace flown combination. Nor would he/she have to talk to anyone. Don't even ask about the convoluted mechanisms behind licence met. limits). No particular check ride quiz on practical application of privileges & limitations of the hopefully-soon-to-be-held licence or rating.

So, for a US pilot converting to a JAR equivalent, be prepared for numerous examinations, in great technical or pedantic depth, many written rather than multi-choice questions requiring skills such as plotting, and no approved release of the question databank. What questions that are known or suspected are based on exam candidate feedback after the fact.

None of the above is to say that either JAR/UK, US or Australia don't turn out some excellent pilots - because they do. But the emphasis is remarkably different & can be quite a culture shock.

 

[jumppilot]

Oh well. FAA ATP pilots fly to London, Germany, Russia, etc, all the time without mishap.

Joke's on the JAA as far as I'm concerned!

 

[bafanguy]

Joke's on the JAA as far as I'm concerned!

jump,

I sorta agree in the practical sense. However, it's all about economic protectionism...and I certainly hope the US is doing exactly the same thing.

That being said, if I were I young guy with the drive to "dance the dance", I'd really look at getting a JAA license. The world's getting a bit smaller and having the JAA ticket would make your life a bit easier and give you more options, I assume. I think there are places in the US where you can train and qualify for it. Someone here certainly knows.

As an aside to the JAA/FAA thing, there are pilots flying on contract at foreign carriers all over the world on their FAA tickets. I have very limited experience at this with just one ( now expired ) foreign "endorsement" based on my US license. I am NOT the expert on this subject !!

Because these rules are made by governments, they can be changed/altered/broken by these governments. If they decide they need pilots with particular quals and don't have enough locals to keep things moving economically, they'll allow expats in on contract and issue them a time-limited "endorsement" based on the US license. In my case, this was issued following the sim check and allowed me to act as PIC on a specific acft registered in this country and, in their airspace.. In my limited experience, they'll also get you the work visa. As I said...they make the rules; they can break the rules.

While this isn't for everybody, it's just one possible route around the JAA thing. I see many foreign job postings saying JAA ticket req'd...period.

I'm sure there are lots of people on here who can provide more details on this.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

From what I understand (according to a couple ofEuopeanemployment professionals I talked to) is that the JAA license isnot aproblem. The problem lies (as Mobie referred to) in getting a"right towork in the EU" or equivilent of a "green card" over here. Fornon EUpeole in professions that there is not a shortage (read pilots),thecard is near impossible to obtain. This is only applicable inEUagreement countries and does not include the Middle andFarEast.

Sir,


There is no such thing as a European (EU) “greencard” or it’sequivalent. Each and every country has its own regulations regardingtemporarily work permits. I don’t want to be in a position where theFrench get to decide who works in my country…

Is it possible for a US citizen toget a workpermit in aWestern-European country? Absolutely. Is it difficult to get one? Yes!Just as hard as it is for a EU citizen to get a workpermit in thestates? Yes!

Friendly regards,

FD

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Offtopic: moderator,Why are all my words “sticky” ??? I can’tseparate "the" from 'states' and 'a' from 'western'. Etc etc



??

 

[OleGuy]

" Is it difficult to get one? Yes!Just as hard as it is for a EU citizen to get a workpermit in thestates? Yes!"



OK, we won't call it a green card, we'll call it a work permit...what's your point?