Difference between ANG and Reserves

[Sean]

I'm studying for the AFOQT test...I'm sure this question has been asked 100 x's...

What are the main differences between Air ANG and Air Force Reserves besides one is state funded, and the other is not...not even sure if that is true.

I'm looking at both ANG and Reserves...can anyone help.

Also why and how do people fail out of UPT...is it attitude?...can't cut it...etc.

 

[CCDiscoB]

ANG vs Reserves

While they look the same and act the same, they aren’t. Like you mentioned ANG is state controlled. This is true, in theory. From what I’ve seen the state control involves rank structure, especially in the higher ranks (Generals). It’s not like the Governor is going to activate us to fly in Saudi. (I’m not talking about the Army and their activations for emergencies)

The Reserves are a lot more active duty oriented. I think their rank structure counts against active duty’s. As far as ANG getting activated vs. Reserves in don’t think there is much difference.

Pilot Training – I could write for hours about why kids wash out. As a former T-37 Flight Commander, I’ve seen a lot. The ones that wash out the earliest are the ones that either get airsick or simply can’t fly. Someone with previous flying time like you have should not have too much of a problem. The T-37 handles like just like a Piper. BUT, if you go fighter/bomber track, the T-38 is the great equalizer. Meaning someone who did average in T-37s may kick butt in the T-38. I've seen guys with a lot of flying time not do well. We sent a kid, 1500 hours, washed out of T-38s for formation.

I can get more detailed if you want.

Fly Safe

 

[chawbein]

Please do get more detailed...I would like to know more about why folks fail out of Tweet training.

 

[T1bubba]

attrites

Like CC said, you could write a book about why people flunk out of UPT. I was in charge of everyone who had attrited on our base for over a year and worked in the office that handled the Commander's Reviews (the process you go through to get kicked out, or maybe to get another chance...), so I got a pretty good picture of what happened to get people kicked out in all 3 aircraft.

CC said the 38 is the great equalizer, but at least on our base T-1's had a higher attrition rate. Which was mostly due to the fact that we often got the folks who barely made it through tweets (or shouldn't have made it through tweets, depending on your perspective). Regardless, people flunk out from the third week of ground school all the way until after their last flight. There is no point at which you've "got it made" until you're wearing your wings.

The majority show a lack of ability to learn at the required pace to complete the syllabus. Anyone can learn to fly with unlimited flight time, but you only get a finite amount. Different people have problems with different areas, there isn't any one thing people have more trouble with.

An important thing to keep in mind is that the ultimate decision on whether to attrite someone or give them a second chance comes from the ops group commander. Each OG has their own philosophy, and sometimes it can be tough to guess who gets kicked out for what, especially when it's not just a flying problem.

I'll give you two quick examples- a T-37 student leaves his camera in the aircraft after a solo flight (camera's are banned in the aircraft without the OG's approval). He gives up two other students who did the same thing on their solos. Many of us thought that these individuals could be rehabilitated and shown the error of their ways. The OG disagreed, all three got tossed for intentionally violating the rules.

A student waiting to start ground school is phone mustering every morning (calling in to see if we had any work for him). One Monday he is told to report in in person within the next hour. It turns out he can't because he is about 800 miles away visiting his girlfriend. He's not on pass or leave which is normally known as AWOL and is a UCMJ violation. Many of us thought this guy would be lucky if he only got kicked out of flight school and didn't face an admin discharge or a courts martial. Instead he got called in, yelled at, and started ground school a few weeks later. The footnote to this story is that he was kicked out about a month later for doing something else dumb.

Generally, as long as you study hard, show up on time, and follow the rules you'll be alright. The attrition rate when I left was less than 10%.

T1bubba

 

[Sean]

UPT

CCDiscoB & T1bubba:

Thank you very much for all your info! This site is truly great!

I guess the only other question I have is if the both of you have any regrets about flying Military...I have been looking into this for a year and have three bases I'm looking at...New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania.

From what I see the ANG and or Reserves is a great deal...I wish I had done this 5 years ago...I don't know what took me so long.

--Sean

 

[AlbieF15]

This thread has gone from "why do guys wash out" to "why are guys kicked out?" I often marvel at just how hard it is to get booted from active duty, yet a few guys manage to do just that every year. My perspective is from 14 years active duty + 1 in ANG...all in the cockpit. If you read the AF times, you might get the vibes people get kicked out or sue the AF for reinstatement all the time. However, the average pilot type dudes are far enough to the right side of the bell curve to generally stay out of trouble. Here's the only rules I've seen where you get "fired" from the AF.

Rule one: Don't do drugs. Ever.

Rule two: Do not steal ANYTHING from work. Ever. No computer software, no pens, no office supplies, no airplane parts, no money (from Snack Bar). Nothing you can steal is worth more than A) your professional reputation and integrity and B) the money you'll make as an officer and pilot.

Rule three: Do not have sex with the help. Enlisted are 100% off limits. Some guys have pressed to test and survived. Some haven't. Don't push your luck to see where the coin falls when you get caught (and you will--nobody can ever keep a secret). That cute little airman you banged at the party last week is just dying to tell somebody she slept with a pilot. When you decide to go ahead, realize for the rest of your career, even into retirement, you are one bad phone call away from losing everything you have ever worked for.

Rule four: Communications/Security issues are important. Those kids fired for cameras violated security issues. Compromising air discipline by taking snapshots when told not to in a T-37 doesn't compromise national security. However...what if front line F-16 or F-22 pilots had snapshots of cockpit displays, etc. in their photo albums? If I can't trust you in tweets what makes me sure I can trust you when you are doing nuke certs in your B-52, B-2, or F-15E? Failing to take standard security issues will get you in Leavenworth under UCMJ or kicked out or both.

Rule five: Show up for work when told. That means...don't sneak off when not on leave status. Don't report late again and again and again. Anyone can oversleep one morning, but a pattern of "failling to show" is serious. Be where you are suppossed to be and where you told your supervisors you would be and you are covered.

Rule six: Tell the truth, even when it hurts. When cornered by the boss, fighter pilots boast they "deny, deny, and make false counter-accusations" but the reality is the smart guy simply comes clean and lets his boss make the right decision. Almost every fighter pilot I know has a story or two that ends with "...well boss, ....it seemed like the thing to do at the time". If they don't, then they likely haven't had very much fun on some TDYs. I've known guys to bounce back from some really crazy/dumb/really stupid/morally wrong actions once they bit the bullet and told the truth, but I haven't seen many that ever got caught lying bounce back.

What you might consider "showstoppers" aren't always....for instance...

DUIs are bad. People have survived them. Other guys haven't. Best rule of thumb is don't be the THIRD guy is a short while to get one. Idiot # 1 and idiot #2 sometimes skate, idiot #3 rarely does.

Been in a couple of squadrons where dude A has fling with dude B's wife. Personally, for a combat squadron, I think this is a much more serious offense than having sex with the enlisted support, and I think is almost the worst thing a military pilot can do to bring down morale in a squadron (the worst is cowardice or failing to execute duty during combat ops). However, AF takes a hard line on frat, but the "Romeos" I've seen have all gotten a "bad" assignment on their next round, but have managed to survive and continue careers.

Pretty much everything else is the same as the civilian world. The idea you cannot have sex with someone who wants to have sex with you simply because of some artificial (and some think antiquated) rules about fraternization clobber a few young guys (and some old ones) every year. Every once in a great while you find someone who you worked with/around is a liar/thief and gets caught doing something stupid. I've seen a few guys end up AWOL, but that has usually been to paperwork buffonery (failing to inform gaining unit when taking leave enroute, etc) instead of willful malice. I've know 2 fighter pilots who went off status for a 21 day alcohol detox....one survived and came back and another didn't (because he'd previously been treated and signed a sworn statement saying he'd NEVER drink alcohol again).
Its really not that hard....do the right thing, the first time, and when you make an honest mistake (which you will) good leaders generally back you up. If you are punished (grounded a week, letter of reprimand, etc) most of those things evaporate from your records quickly if it apparent there isn't a pattern of poor decisions and actions.

Go to UPT and concentrate on the basics. It can be, no kidding, 365 of the funnest days of your life.

 

[Sean]

UPT

AlbieF15:

Good Post...I have read most of your other posts and see you have worked hard to get where you are!...thank you for taking the time to reply...

Hopefully in a year I'll be in OCS then UPT!

Again, thanks for the great info!

--Sean

 

[T1bubba]

Sean,

No regrets. I did 9.5 years active duty and had a great time, if I had it to do all over again I wouldn't change a thing.

You're right about the guard and reserve being a great deal, I'm in the process of joining the guard now. For anyone who already has a degree the guard or reserves is the way to go.

Albie,

Great advice! It always killed me to see folks shoot themselves in the foot by doing one of the things you mentioned when they had a great career ahead of them.

The most important is rule is to always be honest. I've lost count of the number of people I've seen screw up, lie about it, then get kicked out of the military because they were caught lying- NOT because of whatever it was they screwed up in the first place. One of my flight students got caught in that situation AFTER his last flight in flight school- no wings for him...

T1bubba

 

[CCDiscoB]

Go Guard

Sean,

No regrets at all. Actually I wish I could do it again, only this time start in the Guard. (hint, hint) On active duty you'll come to many a cross road in which you will decide your future. Like when I turned down a United interview back in 94 because I just was just assigned the best base in the AF and the best fighter. An F-15 to Eglin AFB. Without that F-15 assignment, I couldn't return home and fly fighters in the ANG . Which was another crossroad. Fly for the Guard or make a clean break and go straight to the airlines.

If you go active duty, there won't be as many crossroads, except a big one at the 11 year point. Pin on Major or get out. The AF pilot training commitment, 10 years after pilot training (i.e. 11 years) will take you to your Major's promotion. Oh by the way, when you pin on that's another two year commitment. So the commitment is really 13 years. You'll have to decide at that time whether to accept promotion or not. If you decline promotion, the bridge will be burned, but you will be in control of your future for the first time.

More later, when I have time.

 

[Sean]

Guard & Reserves

CCDiscoB:

When you say, "Guard", are you referring to Reserves as well, or just the ANG?

Thanks Sean.

I'm taking the AFOQT Oct. 15th...I hope I do great!