Descents and Restrictions

[your_dreamguy]

Question about descents. Let's say you're on an arrival and there's a crossing restriction at XYZ intersection of 280 KTS and 10000.' While descending to meet the restriction, ATC comes back and says "descend and maintain 8000" and nothing further. Do you still need to cross XYZ intersection at 280 KTS and 10000?

The only reason I'm asking is because I got in a dis-agreement with a captain the other day and just wanted to clarify.

Thank you.

 

[CA1900]

No, I don't believe you don't need to meet the old restriction. He should restate the restriction if he needs it.

From the AIM, section 4-4-9, item (g):

g. The guiding principle is that the last ATC clearance has precedence over the previous ATC clearance. When the route or altitude in a previously issued clearance is amended, the controller will restate applicable altitude restrictions. If altitude to maintain is changed or restated, whether prior to departure or while airborne, and previously issued altitude restrictions are omitted, those altitude restrictions are canceled, including departure procedures and STAR altitude restrictions.

There ya go. That said, if you suspect he probably does still need the restriction (for in-trail or whatever), I'd certainly ask.

 

[Princedietrich]

CA1900 is correct. If ATC issues you a clearance that is different from what is on a printed chart or on your filed flight plan, the ATc issued instructions will override anything that is on paper. This includes crossing restrictions, routing, missed approach procedures, among other things.

 

[Singlecoil]

...but not speed.

A lot of charts lately have been changed to make that fact more clear. They will say "Cross XXX at 280 knots. When cleared to descend via the Blowme arrival, cross XXX at 10,000 feet." Two different assignments on the STAR. If ATC clears you down to 8000, you can ignore the 10,000 foot restriction, but not the 280 restriction.

 

[AC560]

...but not speed.

A lot of charts lately have been changed to make that fact more clear. They will say "Cross XXX at 280 knots. When cleared to descend via the Blowme arrival, cross XXX at 10,000 feet." Two different assignments on the STAR. If ATC clears you down to 8000, you can ignore the 10,000 foot restriction, but not the 280 restriction.

Somewhat off topic but in the case of SID's does that apply as well? I have always been a bit unclear whether the speed restrictions still apply.

AIM 5-2-7(e)(5)
After an aircraft is established on an ODP/SID and subsequently vectored or cleared off of the ODP or SID transition, pilots shall consider the ODP/SID canceled, unless the controller adds "expect to resume ODP/SID."

 

[puddlejumper]

No, I don't believe you don't need to meet the old restriction. He should restate the restriction if he needs it.

From the AIM, section 4-4-9, item (g):

g. The guiding principle is that the last ATC clearance has precedence over the previous ATC clearance. When the route or altitude in a previously issued clearance is amended, the controller will restate applicable altitude restrictions. If altitude to maintain is changed or restated, whether prior to departure or while airborne, and previously issued altitude restrictions are omitted, those altitude restrictions are canceled, including departure procedures and STAR altitude restrictions.

There ya go. That said, if you suspect he probably does still need the restriction (for in-trail or whatever), I'd certainly ask.

I know of a DO, CP, senior captain and POI who would disagree with the above guidance. I mean, I even had a guy think he won a beer bet regarding this exact same issue. Unbelievable huh? I need to take a class on making a convincing point/argument I guess, because I couldn't even read from the AIM and get these guys to agree. How's that for a hostile work environment? Maybe I should read that Carnegie book...

PJ

 

[minitour]

...but not speed.

A lot of charts lately have been changed to make that fact more clear. They will say "Cross XXX at 280 knots. When cleared to descend via the Blowme arrival, cross XXX at 10,000 feet." Two different assignments on the STAR. If ATC clears you down to 8000, you can ignore the 10,000 foot restriction, but not the 280 restriction.

...of course, if you're cleared down to 8,000 you're expected to be at 250 before leaving 10,000, so that would eliminate the speed restriction on the chart.

-mini