Delta's concessions

[suupah]

ok if delta needs $1,000,000,000 in concessions from pilots per year and there are 7000 pilots that is

$142,857 per pilot per year. ok i am not a math guy but WTF?

If delta crashes what happens ot the regionals? short term long term

 

[Vortilon]

Not all of the concessions will be in dollar form but workrules and percieved efficiency, benefits, retirment, etc.

The regionals will unfortunately feel similar pressure down the line but its hard to imagine paying a 1st year FO less, isn't it?

 

[~~~^~~~]

If delta crashes what happens ot the regionals? short term long term

Depends on which Regional partner you are making reference to. ASA and Comair are wholly owned subsidiaries of the same Comapny and their fate is the same as Delta's fate - they are not separate companies when it comes to money.

The simply fact that 82% of ASA's passengers get on a Delta jet clearly indicates that without Delta, there is no ASA.

Chautauqua would probably make it providing lift to someone, as would Skywest. ACA has already decided to leave Connection and form Independance Airlines.

I'm not too sure there is a long term. At current cash burn rates Delta has 9 months to spend 1.4 Bn, then it is over. Fuel needs to come down now ( but is expected to hit nearly $60 a barrell this winter ) ALPA needed to conceede pay cuts a year ago ( they are afraid to make an unpopular decision with so many senior guys getting their cash and getting out ) and management needed to be more aggressive with cutting costs everywhere ( they were hoping it would not come to this ).

So the short term prognosis is not good and the long term prognosis does not exist based on current financial performance. Delta is #3 on the list of airlines expected to not be here 5 years from now. United and US Air are neck and neck for #1 & #2.

But even if United & US Air go out, there will be new market entrants to compete with. The problem with all the legacy carriers is longevity. Senior employees make more money and do less work. The harsh reality is that pay scales will probably have to be capped at something like four, or five, years of longevity to make an employer stable. The unions would never accept that and even I bristle at the thought of my earnings stopping.....

~~~^~~~

 

[suupah]

nnn very interesting indeed.

Well I think that eventually the airline industry is going to have to stabilize. I think that we all agree that in the new aviation economy the legacy carriers business models don't work. The streamline business models of southwest type airlines make it impossible for the old guys to compete. They are just too inefficient.

New market entrants are not good for the industry. I think most people are afraid to fly and people trust brands. If there aren't any airlines that people recognize and know the safety record of i think they are less likely to jump on a plane.

Something's got to give, this industry is too vital to the national economy to be this unstable.

 

[michael707767]

The simply fact that 82% of ASA's passengers get on a Delta jet clearly indicates that without Delta, there is no ASA.

I tend to agree with you. So I wonder why the ASA employees are so resistant to the idea of pay cuts. Cuts from the Delta pilots alone will not save Delta. Nor will the cuts from the non union mainline employees. Whether or not ASA or CMR is profitable, their parent company is not. If Delta goes, odds are ASA and CMR will not be far behind.

 

[49W]

I tend to agree with you. So I wonder why the ASA employees are so resistant to the idea of pay cuts.

The reason ASA employees are resistant to pay cuts is because most of us make so little now. Delta flight attendants make more than the first officers at ASA and the more senior flight attendants make more than alot of our captains. If they need pay cuts at ASA, they can have them and I'll go work somewhere else.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

I tend to agree with you. So I wonder why the ASA employees are so resistant to the idea of pay cuts. Cuts from the Delta pilots alone will not save Delta. Nor will the cuts from the non union mainline employees. Whether or not ASA or CMR is profitable, their parent company is not. If Delta goes, odds are ASA and CMR will not be far behind.

One reason is as many have stated before, we could all work for free and the same fundamental flaws in the model would still exist. I for one and I suspect many others at DCI already work for as close to "free" as we are going to. We are ALREADY there! There are numerous ways in which to earn 20-60K a year. There are not so many ways to earn 150-300K. That may account for the difference in our willingness to take a cut!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Michael: I'm not entirely against it. But cuts at ASA do not have much of an impact becasue we are not paid very much and based on our profitability ( 11 to 24% depending on when you look & who you ask ) we are earning what we make.

It is simply rediculous that Delta pilots ( who currently make twice the industry average - that's 100% sports fans ) want other groups who are compensated at less than LCC rates to take pay cuts so they can continue to take 50% more than the industry average out of Delta.

So if the choice is to work for nearly nothing to offset the greed of Delta pilots, a lot of us, including me, say let Delta die. We will get hired at Airtran much faster than Delta pilots will. After all, you guys completely locked the Eastern guys out who now run AAI's hiring and after you contributed to Delta's death, HR folks will be afraid to hire Delta pilots. ( Only my guess )

So I would think it in your best interest to do anything you can to save Delta, regardless of whether ASA's pilots contribute 1% of the cost savings necessary for Delta to survive.

 

[Heavy Set]

One reason is as many have stated before, we could all work for free and the same fundamental flaws in the model would still exist. I for one and I suspect many others at DCI already work for as close to "free" as we are going to. We are ALREADY there! There are numerous ways in which to earn 20-60K a year. There are not so many ways to earn 150-300K. That may account for the difference in our willingness to take a cut!

If you want to earn 150-300K+, go work for DAL management. You'll have a secret benefits/retirement offshore account set up in Bermuda in your name. It will be great and nobody will ever know.... Didn't Grinstein actually OK those secret benefits packages while on the board??????

 

[michael707767]

It is simply rediculous that Delta pilots ( who currently make twice the industry average - that's 100% sports fans ) want other groups who are compensated at less than LCC rates to take pay cuts so they can continue to take 50% more than the industry average out of Delta.

I don't think the Delta pilots expect other people to take cuts so we can be paid above the industry standard. I know I don't. I do think our leadership wants others to take cuts because we realize that our pay cuts alone, no matter how deep, will not save Delta. It's not a question of how much or how little a pay cut for anyone at Delta would amount too. In the end its going to be the total amount. Every little bit helps. A million here, a million there, and soon you are talking some real money.

And for the recond, personally I hope you don't take a pay cut. I hope you get a raise. The closer your pay is to mine, the less incentive there is to shift flying.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

And for the recond, personally I hope you don't take a pay cut. I hope you get a raise. The closer your pay is to mine, the less incentive there is to shift flying.

That's what I'm talking bout!

 

[Old Crow]

I believe I'm beating the dead horse when I too agree that ASA pay is well known. I will not take a pay cut, no questions. My W-2 was 33,800 last year. I can make that cutting my neighbors grass.

However, I work here for the opportunities that may come as a result of my commitment and hard work. I along with the rest of you can easily see that those benifits (opportunities) will likely not come. So, therefore we are standing at the cross roads. Commit to a career with ASA, or leave for other career options. Each course of action for us will end up financially better than we are right now, Or at least we'll die trying.

 

[P38JLightning]

Comair pilots just took a BIG paycut!

>>>There are numerous ways in which to earn 20-60K a year. There are not so many ways to earn 150-300K. That may account for the difference in our willingness to take a cut!

There ya go! By the way, there are no that many ways for most mainline FA's to go out and make 50-60K with as much time off as they get either. Not refering to Delta as those are non union, but the rest need to pony up to "market levels" before the pilots at these airlines should be asked to give for the 20th time, many of whom are already near the levels of the FA's in the first place, who are brainwashed by their union into thinking they are so unreplaceable because they went through that 3 week training course 12 years ago.

As for Comair, with the Company just unilateraly imposing (in many cases) double the out of pocket insurance costs for (in most cases) way less benefits and several times the out of pocket expense, that's paycut enough.

The Delta pilots could have reformed their retirement system to something a little more reasonable (like FAE for best average 10 years or something) but instead they chose to turn a blind eye to the situation. They let and will let thousands of pilots retire with the most overinflated, flash in the pan 3 year FAE based lump sump based on 3 years the industry won't see again for generations (probably never). Guess they "got theirs" much in the same way Leo and his upper mgt got theirs.

Now they want cuts from the Connection pilots so they can wring another 8 million a year out of Comair. Nice. Yeah that'll front for about 2 more unrestricted C2K retirees.

Looks like the lifeboats are being launched half empty. Oh what the heck, let's be optimistic and call them half full, what's the difference.

 

[acarpe3448]

Michael: I'm not entirely against it. But cuts at ASA do not have much of an impact becasue we are not paid very much and based on our profitability ( 11 to 24% depending on when you look & who you ask ) we are earning what we make.

It is simply rediculous that Delta pilots ( who currently make twice the industry average - that's 100% sports fans ) want other groups who are compensated at less than LCC rates to take pay cuts so they can continue to take 50% more than the industry average out of Delta.

You all keep throwing these numbers around that are just plain wrong. You all like to generalize that every delta pilot makes double what every other airline pays for that position. The fact is that it is a lot higher but it is not double. As far as pay cuts, we are going to take a $1,000,000,000 hit! That is an economic impact of over $140,000 per pilot. Not to mention the 100% pay cut I got 2 1/2 years ago.

I dont think any of you all know what the negotiating team is going to agree to. But I guarentee you that it will include items that will benefit all of the connection carriers (relaxed scope) and will most likely result in the furlough of many more of Delta pilots. As far as that $33,000 that someone said they make at ASA, I would have killed for a job that paid that while I was on unemployment and trying to provide for my family. Some people may be saying that everyone should contribute to Delta's comeback, but it is not everyone! I dont care if you all take a paycut, I hope ASA can get a great contract! Nothing will ever improve between our pilot groups unless each of us decide to quit the mud slinging, cool the tempers, and start treating everyone with respect. This is the right thing to do, God demands it in the bible. Above all else, love one another! Or at least don't fight all the time.

Good luck to all of us!

 

[Ben Franklin]

ok i am not a math guy but WTF?

You have never spoken truer words on here before.


Sincerely,

B. Franklin