DELTA TA-Position Paper for a Yes Vote.

[daviator]

http://dalforums.alpa.org/Portals/3/activeforums_Attach/TA_Point_Paper.pdf

Sorry, I couldn't link it better. Also, the author is not a union rep but a line pilot who has done his own analysis. Enjoy!

 

[jetflier]

R ead
O nly
N o

 

[aeolian]

http://dalforums.alpa.org/Portals/3/activeforums_Attach/TA_Point_Paper.pdf

Sorry, I couldn't link it better. Also, the author is not a union rep but a line pilot who has done his own analysis. Enjoy!

That is analysis for pilots who:
A) Think.
B) Read it in its entirety with a mind that is 1) sober, 2) open and 3) rational.

It is valuable to both DAL pilots and all others. (USAPA pilots in particular should benefit.) We don't get this kind of progress without the wisdom which comes from deep understanding of and experience from involvement with multiple pilot groups. Only a national union possesses such.

Well done daviator.

Aeolian

 

[Skippy]

So if there is a furlough, which 6 seats will be removed? The first class? Riiiight

 

[waveflyer]

I'm positive there was a position paper in the 90's when the first jet went off the property as well....
"why waste negotiating capital....."

You guys sign of on this and you'll see outsourcing be just as rampant- just asks replaced by larger RJs

 

[fam62c]

I'm positive there was a position paper in the 90's when the first jet went off the property as well....
"why waste negotiating capital....."

You guys sign of on this and you'll see outsourcing be just as rampant- just asks replaced by larger RJs

You are right Wave, the genie got out of the bottle long ago and it's not going to get put back here. The best hope is that as retirements pick up and the majors drain the regionals of their pilots the small airlines simply find it impossible to staff their operations well enough to provide reliable service to their networks. I believe this is the one thing that may force better pay, working conditions and hopefully combined seniority lists or actually taking small jet flying in house. The reality is that captains and probably 75% of FO's (as well all the other employees in the company) at majors are not willing to work for less to get smaller planes on the property at a workable cost structure.

I don't think it would be any different at SW. If managment offered growth, promotions, pay and other incentives along with an assurance that no existing employees would be harmed in exchange for the right to operate some 76 seaters under subcontract I think the SW folks would jump on it. It's very hard to turn down improvements (and almost impossible to give up some of what you already have) to prevent a situation that you don't believe will have any bearing on your career path personally. That's just the way that it is, don't be to hard on the DAL guys for accepting something that the majority of the SW guys (or pretty much any pilots group) would accept if placed in the same position. Greed is a big part of the airline pilot psyche.

 

[RJ Bum]

You are right Wave, the genie got out of the bottle long ago and it's not going to get put back here. The best hope is that as retirements pick up and the majors drain the regionals of their pilots the small airlines simply find it impossible to staff their operations well enough to provide reliable service to their networks. I believe this is the one thing that may force better pay, working conditions and hopefully combined seniority lists or actually taking small jet flying in house. The reality is that captains and probably 75% of FO's (as well all the other employees in the company) at majors are not willing to work for less to get smaller planes on the property at a workable cost structure.

I don't think it would be any different at SW. If managment offered growth, promotions, pay and other incentives along with an assurance that no existing employees would be harmed in exchange for the right to operate some 76 seaters under subcontract I think the SW folks would jump on it. It's very hard to turn down improvements (and almost impossible to give up some of what you already have) to prevent a situation that you don't believe will have any bearing on your career path personally. That's just the way that it is, don't be to hard on the DAL guys for accepting something that the majority of the SW guys (or pretty much any pilots group) would accept if placed in the same position. Greed is a big part of the airline pilot psyche.

^^^ Great post! Sums up how pilots should take some responsibility for destroying this profession. Maybe, just maybe DAL and UniCal can change history.....

Jeremy Bentham: "It is the greatest good to the greatest number of people which is the measure of right and wrong."

 

[waveflyer]

The difference is fam, we have 20+ years of RJ outsourcing experience to teach us better.
I actually don't think SWA guys would go for it, as evidenced by their contract- and if swapa did, I would be every bit as harsh with them. And conversely, as critical as I've been, you guys turn this down and I'll be DALPAs biggest cheerleader. You go back and get a -900 on the property and you'll hear so much praise.
6 airlines fam.

 

[waveflyer]

You are correct. We are currently at the max 255 and the only way to get more 76 seaters is to park the 70 seaters as to never exceed the 255. Currently there is 102 70's and 153 76 seaters. If this TA passes those 102 70 seaters will be grandfathered in and 70 more 76 seaters will be allowed.

This is from the Delta TA on scope where I asked what current scope limits were-

Can anyone dispute this?

If not, this position paper doesn't just attempt to muddy the waters on scope, leaving out crucial information, but it's outright misleading.

The gains in scope this TA provides does not come close to the damage it does in solidifying the outsourcing of -900's as the competitive normal.

 

[1st Rate]

I am voting YES as well!!

 

[waveflyer]

And that yes vote is bullsh/t.
Coward level selfishness and naivety -
There's no excuse for any DALPA member to be ignorant of the ramifications of this vote.
You do this and you cut the legs out from under AA and Unical's efforts to not outsource -900's- the competive foundation will be allowing hundreds of 76 seat -900's- and now the bar on how large a jet can be outsourced has been pushed upward again.

Where does it stop?

 

[Scoot 11]

And that yes vote is bullsh/t.
Coward level selfishness and naivety -
There's no excuse for any DALPA member to be ignorant of the ramifications of this vote.
You do this and you cut the legs out from under AA and Unical's efforts to not outsource -900's- the competive foundation will be allowing hundreds of 76 seat -900's- and now the bar on how large a jet can be outsourced has been pushed upward again.

Where does it stop?

How about this you hypocrite. MYOFB!
Concentrate on how YOUR airline has brought down pay/workrules/No retirement, while undercutting the legacies on pay for training. This is the DL pilots' issue. You don't have any business criticizing ANYONE in this industry. You just agreed to fly "bigger airplanes," for the same money. Flying "international" for NO ADDITIONAL PAY! Worry about your own house. Seems like the camel's nose is about to rear its ugly head when you start losing 717's and no airframe replacements. You have no business critiquing anyone in this industry. I for one have not decided on how to vote until I attend a road show, but I will not stand by when someone from an airline who has done NOTHING to better the industry, lectures me on how we are selling out the industry.

 

[waveflyer]

6 airlines Scoot. I know you don't like swa- good for you- get in line.
None of which has anything to do with the FACT that this TA will be highly influential at EVERY airline. Thus IS me MMOFB. There is not a pilot in the world who doesn't have a right to speak about you farming out jobs. That's a compliment. It is indicative of DALPA's stature in aviation. There is only one airline bigger, and they're represented by two MECs. DALPA is the largest, most influential voice in the airlines and your vote will have far reaching consequences. Remember that as you cast your vote.

On behalf of the thousands of pilots who have had their job outsourced and haven't been as lucky to find a job at a major, I have zero issue speaking my mind about it.

It's funny you mention swa though. As a swapa member, I benefit far more in the short term, by you reaching parity with our rates than by a scope issue. I really can't wait until the network legacies leapfrog us completely. But I've learned that scope is a HUGE part of the pressure on wages. It's much more important than rates.

 

[General Lee]

Wave,

Scoot is right. Clean up your own problems like paying for your initial type rating first before focusing on our TA. A lot of this is because other legacy carriers can't get their own acts together, and pattern bargaining is a bust. The NMB told our MEC in person that pattern bargaining would be the deal in mediation, and said only AA, UAL, and US would be considered. She also said no retro pay would be allowed. So, you can either get 20% now and have it by the time normal section 6 contracts would have been completed, or you can hope to get the same 2 years from the ammedable date. Not a sure thing at all.

Scope is tightened, losing 80 total RJ hulls, and additional 76 seaters are tied in to 717s coming on line. If they don't, they don't get additional 76 seaters. If they park mainline planes, they have to park RJs. It's a ratio, favoring mainline. Add better INTL scope and domestic code shares too, all in a 3 year contract.


So, quit trying to call people names and instead go hug an AirTran brother or sister. After how they were treated by many in your group, they deserve one.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[tomgoodman]

The NMB told our MEC in person that pattern bargaining would be the deal in mediation, and said only AA, UAL, and US would be considered. She also said no retro pay would be allowed.

If true, that's a gross and premature interference in the collective bargaining process. Why don't they save time and write the contract themselves?

 

[PCL_128]

If true, that's a gross and premature interference in the collective bargaining process.

Nah, that's part of their job. They preach doom and gloom to both sides in order to provide motivation for both parties to bargain in good faith towards reaching a deal. They tell DALPA what the General mentioned, and then they go meet with Richard Anderson and tell him that if he's not careful, they'll release DALPA and the President will issue a pro-labor PEB. Both sides get scared, both sides therefore bargain in good faith, and a deal is reached, preventing the NMB from having to take any drastic measures to resolve the dispute. It's not a pretty process, but it works.

 

[tomgoodman]

PCL,

Thanks for that explanation. It sounds like the NMB warns each side: "One of these days we will surprise you by telling the truth, and then you'll be sorry." I think it would be better if the NMB rep were the only honest person in the room, instead of merely the third liar. That way, if he or she did make a threat, it would be believed.

 

[Speedtape]

I'm positive there was a position paper in the 90's when the first jet went off the property as well....
"why waste negotiating capital....."

You guys sign of on this and you'll see outsourcing be just as rampant- just asks replaced by larger RJs

So from looking at your profile, it was OK to outsource RJs when you flew them?

 

[Snaab]

The TA position paper does point out lots of positives for a 'yes' vote- especially in the YOY pay increases. That's some serious coinage Delta pilots in any a/c or seat will pocket. The scope language seems to be pretty specific, too, and finally seems to move some flying back to Delta SNB aircraft and away from DCI aircraft.

I'm a regional Captain (looking onward and upward) and think it's a step in the right direction for Delta and the industry. Thanks for posting that position paper. It was an interesting read.

Just curious what some people think the drawbacks/negatives of the TA are..

-Snaab

 

[JumpersAway]

So, quit trying to call people names and instead go hug an AirTran brother or sister. After how they were treated by many in your group, they deserve one.


Bye Bye---General Lee

LOL! This is the quote of the morning, and thusly, deserves special attention!!!!! Kudos General, Kudos!

 

[charlie2]

So from looking at your profile, it was OK to outsource RJs when you flew them?

I flew a CRJ at my regional 13 years ago for one reason because I owed it to my family to transition to a higher paying position. I hated the fact that my regional was getting bigger airplanes because I wanted to go to a major but I got turned down by UAL so I did what was best for my family and I would do it again. I think scope, min fleet and min utilization rates are critical in our contracts. At my crappy company our brilliant management team has us at our min fleet. They found a loop hole in our scope and have more outsourcing than we believe our contract allows but we lost that one. They tried to cheat us by going below the min utilization rates a few years ago but we won that one...seriously we as a labor union had to force our managent team to FLY the aircraft that they have. They wanted to keep them on the ground??? Seriously? Sorry about the rant. Good luck Delta pilots.

 

[Dan Roman]

So from looking at your profile, it was OK to outsource RJs when you flew them?

Wave?...........

 

[Dan Roman]

It's funny you mention swa though. As a swapa member, I benefit far more in the short term, by you reaching parity with our rates than by a scope issue. I really can't wait until the network legacies leapfrog us completely. But I've learned that scope is a HUGE part of the pressure on wages. It's much more important than rates.

Let's see, SWA in the 80's and 90's has pilots that work much longer hours for far lower wages than legacy pilots and accept minimal retirement compared to them. The legacies compete as best they can with being undercut by creating large networks that feed each other. Now you have a problem with that business model that requires massive amount of feed and ALPA trying to preserve as many jobs as they can at mainline wages and still compete?
I agree with the concept of the larger RJ's flown by mainline pilot's you argue for. I just think you are unrealistic about the whole RJ thing.
Besides, you are SWA, I would think in markets that DAL abandoned and replaced with RJ service through a hub would actually open up opportunities for SWA to provide 737 service.

 

[Noserider76]

On behalf of the thousands of pilots who have had their job outsourced and haven't been as lucky to find a job at a major, I have zero issue speaking my mind about it.

There are many things I take issue with on this TA but I believe in the end it raises the bar for the industry. The pay rates alone are a huge increase (50%) for our peers who are wallowing around without much hope or leverage.

The scope section is a step in the right direction. It reduces the amount of outsourced jobs and increases the number of mainline jobs. True, it does it by adding more large RJs but decreases the total number of outsourced airframes and replaces the associated flying with new mainline airplanes (and jobs).

Management has made the decision they cannot fly a certain size aircraft profitably at mainline. Like it or not they make those decisions. If they can't have 76 seaters they'll fly 2 50 seaters on the route until the cows come home.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Ford & Harrison pr team alive and well on all the boards, so I'll repost from a different thread for those not yet succombed to Stockholm Syndrome:

You guys at Delta need to:

STOP listening to road shows

STOP reading Negotiater's Notepad and other memos

STOP taking your reps answers as fact.

(...and it should go without saying STOP listening to Kool-Aid from management and their concurrent scare tactics via media press releases about how everything hinges on the pilots)

Why???? The bottom line is they can put anything they want in a "notepad" or memo and tell you anything they want (and it may not even be malicious from reps, they likely have just been drinking the Kool-Aid)...and NONE of that matters a bit!

WHAT matters then? What is specifically WRITTEN in the *SIGNED contract*! Stop complaining about "legalese" and just READ what is ACTUALLY WRITTEN in your native language...I assure you, you can do this, and it is the ONLY thing that can be used for or against you, NOT a "Notepad" or hearsay.

The whole time, think? "Why is this passage vague?" or "Why does this not specify this?" "or prevent THAT?" Is this written in a way they can mess with us in even NEW ways?"

They pay this law firm MILLIONS to keep the same millions from the pilots. They have a playbook (read "Confessions of a Union Buster") and without fail pilot unions fall for the exact same tricks, over and over.

WHY is there such a rush (on the management's end)? WHY is your union SO accomodating to them? They hold all the cards, yet STILL run scared. When does "next time" become THIS time?

You all need to FORCE your union to FIGHT them (they WILL win if they are strong)...and by all means STOP FALLING RIGHT INTO THEIR HANDS by dividing up into DPA and N vs S! That is EXACTLY what they want... they want you to be divided on this TA...they win EITHER way...PILOTS, however, can only win ONE way: Sticking together with the union you have, throw the Management Buddies TO THE CURB *NOW* and get smart RADICAL people in there who realize the power of what? 10 to 12,000 PILOTS that the airline NEEDS! My GAHD if you don't have leverage NOW, WHEN do you?????

Get rid of the Kool-Aid Drinking, management LOVING double agent members of the MEC you have NOW and get the experienced FIGHTERS in there NOW in your *CURRENT UNION*! There is nothing better to them to have a divided and WEAKER union.

The whole industry is watching, if your own personal losses aren't enough motivation. Bottom line, "YES" to this embarassment equals NO WIN for pilots there and elsewhere, NO + fighters=ONLY UP!


ETA--- After googling "Ford & Harrison" (if you are sadly unfamiliar), also Google "Airlines for America" and look at the board. Management of ALL these airlines are working TOGETHER tp play ALL of you airline pilots against each other and divide and conquer in unison. Thought that was obvious but reading here makes me wonder.

Other airline pilots experienced with Mike Campbell and Ford & Harrison feel free to add how well he works with pilots and how his TAs are worked.

 

[waveflyer]

So from looking at your profile, it was OK to outsource RJs when you flew them?

First, I flew them after I was furloughed from a legacy.
2nd, former RJ pilots ARE disenfranchised by outsourcing and should be heard no matter where they came from.
A vast majority are not trying to make a regional their career-
The proliferation of rj's has made it difficult to avoid a career in the airlines without flying it.
The problem isn't the airplane. The problem is mainline pilots voting to allow their management to set up a whipsawed false market in order to violate seniority and artificially keep wages lower than they would normally be.

 

[redflyer65]

Yea Dan, those same Southwest pilots from the 80's and 90's were awarded large stock options with low, in the money strike prices all while the stock was splitting every six months. Can you say millionaires? Just with the stock options alone! And it was done using a 737 as a regional jet and not allowing any other 'feed'.

 

[PCL_128]

Yea Dan, those same Southwest pilots from the 80's and 90's were awarded large stock options with low, in the money strike prices all while the stock was splitting every six months. Can you say millionaires?

Which doesn't change the fact that they were vastly undercutting every legacy pilot in the country with their bottom of the barrel pay, retirement, and work rules. Obviously not the case anymore, but it was for decades, and pretending that it wasn't is disingenuous.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

WAVE!!!

Really? Seriously.....take your $hit to another board!! Does this TA affect you?

The only reason I have any clue of your consistent whining and crying is because people quote your sorry excuses for an argument. You didn't get hired at Delta....you have a hard-on for us.....we get it, now move along....what's that? You wish you didn't have to buy your type? I hear ya pal....

Go shine your leather jacket or pray to Gary on your mat set for Dallas Mecca at high noon Herb time, but get the F off our board and stop stirring our pot.

 

[waveflyer]

Yeah bill, this TA affects EVERY airline pilot, now and in the future, worldwide.
Or do you doubt ALPA's influence on the industry?