Delta and 70,90 & 110 seaters

[Tim47SIP]

OK, for all of you mainline guys (or whoever) in the know. I have been trying to help three furloughed Delta pilots get jobs at ASA (just walking up apps and a LOR, hasn't worked so far but I am hoping) and have been talking to them about possible future outcomes for the furloughed guys and Delta mainline plans for 70-110 seat aircraft. I told them that I thought that DALPA would probably want all additional 70 seaters and above over our (DCI) allocated numbers because many mainline guys have stated that there are no restrictions to the number of RJ's if they are at Delta mainline. I also thought that Delta might possibly put together a seperate unit with these aircraft (for the furloughed guys to fly) because they could not be operated with current mainline bennifits such as pay and retirement funds, etc. Two of the individuals stated the same thing. They said that after talking to their MEC (or representative?) that there would never be a seperate airline within Delta because of what happened with Delta Express. Different pay for same seniority lists.

Here is where it gets interesting. They also stated that there was concern that if the 70/90 seaters were brought into mainline at greatly reduced pay scales, that there would be no way to stop Delta management from putting a whole bunch of them on line and shrinking the number of widebodies (replacing the positions with lower paid positions) without scope to limit the number of small airframes Delta could put on line while also limitting the reduction of widebody aircraft.

So my question is this, if DCI has to be limited to stop outsourcing of mainline jobs and mainline would have to be limited to prevent the loss of widebody positions and a large increase in the lower paid positions, what is the difference? Or better yet, what is the answer. I know that Delta mainline guys would be flying them, but Delta needs to be able to constantly right size the aircraft for the loads and any restrictions would continue to hurt the companies resultant earnings.

P.S. This is not meant to upset anyone at all and I know it is not an official DALPA statement. No flame intended at all. Just looking for honest opinions. Thanks in advance.

 

[General Lee]

TIM47SIP,

I'll take a crack at this one. First of all, anything can be negotiated. If Delta wants more of a certain type airplane, then Dalpa can figure out a way to do it. To say that Delta would have unlimited reign in determining how many are put on the property is ridiculous. Look at the current 70 seater restriction for DCI. If Delta wanted more, and Dalpa thought that a high number could be a threat to the widebodies, then there would be a limit set. Maybe a percentage of widebodies to 70 seaters, etc. I know Delta likes the flexibility of different sized planes, and they probably have too many sizes at the moment, and I have heard that they may want more than 57 70 seaters. The key will be what they do with a future 100 seater, which is also something supposedly that they want. (Fred Reid SUPPOSEDLY told the last "in Command" class for new Captains that the A318 was the lead.....I do not know if that is 100% true or not...) As far as Dalpa is concerned, I think they want Delta to do well, but not forget about the 1060 that will still be out as of Dec 1st. I have made plenty of suggestions to Dalpa and management via the ATL CPO about allowing some extra (not current) 70 seaters to fly with Delta furloughed pilots in a separate DCI type carrier, but haven't heard much back. You may be correct about Dalpa not wanting to go that route, but I think they would rather see the 100 seater idea expand, and that is probably where the furloughs will return to, although I hope it is sooner than that.

Tell your Delta furloughed friends that I hope they return quickly, and if not to keep trying at ASA and maybe even Chataqua, since they are Delta friendly.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[sleepy]

If you have the mainline operating the same type of aircraft as ASA and Comair (CR7) wouldn't that pretty much shoot down the DALPA justification for defeating the PID a few years ago?

 

[E120ASA]

1. The only problem with is a person I know in management at Delta told me that they only want between 6000 to 8000 total mainline pilots. 2. ASA is having a problem with the Delta furloughed pilots because 50% of them have left for corporate jobs right after training and this is not sitting well with the company. Good luck to all.

 

[General Lee]

E120ASA,

Well, we will have 7752 when the other 250 come back by Dec, and it really doesn't matter what they want since we have a No Furlough Clause---they have to call back the others when the RPMs increase, and they eventually will. When all of the furloughs come back, then we will give them some productivity enhancements, not before they come back. They are going to have to find airplanes for them to fly as they all come back, and besides the 100 seaters that will eventually arrive, the only other planes that could be ordered and wanted by Delta management are the 70 seaters. (not your current ones or the 57 total) If they want relief, they know where they can get pilots. You can't just wish away the other 1060 like they do not exist. We have pilots out on the street, who can't get jobs in this crappy market, and have kids and families etc. Your dreams of upgrade and expansion overlook the sorrow on our furloughs' faces. Yes, ASA has been nice to some of them, and some of them may have left for other jobs, which really isn't nice but maybe the right thing for their families at the time. You and I don't know their reasons. But we do know who really pays for this all, Delta---not ASA. It is all absorbed by the owner---Delta. That doesn't mean our furloughs shouldn't be professional and nice, though. They should respect the ASA people and be happy about the opportunity. Some guys are like that, and some are not. But don't think all of our furloughs are like that, a lot of our current furloughs flew RJs at ASA and Comair. But, overall, we are thankful for your generosity. And, I don't know who will fly the future 70 seaters, but I know where we could find some pilots...

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Flash 7]

Some guys are like that, and some are not. But don't think all of our furloughs are like that,



Very good point General. Just wanted to bring to your attention that not all Comair pilots were against the Hiring of Delta Pilots. I for one actually spoke to J.C. Lawson in a union meeting 2 weeks after the fact stating that I disagreed with our company policy.

I'm just getting sick and tired of listening to you try to rub the fact that all Comair pilots are blackballed from mainline in the event that they ever do hire again.

If you want to give ASA preferential hiring then fine. But to blackball a rank and file comair guy that maybe was furloughed themselves before coming to Comair or that was not even on the property when all this took place is assinine and Ignorant.

I enjoy a lot of your posts and respect the fact that your looking out for the guys on the street. I too have many friends including my brother who is furloughed from AA.

I love it here at Comair and if I never leave it wouldn't be too bad here at all. I just hope if someday if I apply to Delta and you were interviewing me you would judge me as a person.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Some guys are like that, and some are not. But don't think all of our furloughs are like that,



Very good point General. Just wanted to bring to your attention that not all Comair pilots were against the Hiring of Delta Pilots. I for one actually spoke to J.C. Lawson in a union meeting 2 weeks after the fact stating that I disagreed with our company policy.

I'm just getting sick and tired of listening to you try to rub the fact that all Comair pilots are blackballed from mainline in the event that they ever do hire again.

If you want to give ASA preferential hiring then fine. But to blackball a rank and file comair guy that maybe was furloughed themselves before coming to Comair or that was not even on the property when all this took place is assinine and Ignorant.

I enjoy a lot of your posts and respect the fact that your looking out for the guys on the street. I too have many friends including my brother who is furloughed from AA.

I love it here at Comair and if I never leave it wouldn't be too bad here at all. I just hope if someday if I apply to Delta and you were interviewing me you would judge me as a person.

You make some good points. If you asked me a year ago about what I would try to do about hiring comair pilots at Delta....I would have said NO WAY and tried to do something about it. However as time has passed and emotions settled, I have to agree with you. The interview is where you will be judged and I know some good people at comair who I would gladly help to get hired at Delta if they so desired.

However with regards to ASA, the deal was basically......support the idea of hiring Delta pilots w/o seniority resignation and we will set up a program of some sort for your pilots. My energy will be focused on trying to suggest some good ideas for ASA pilots who want to come over. It must be a GOOD program for them. This is a good chance to incourage pilot group cooperation for the future furloughed pilots. So as you can see, in my opinion we will need to come up with a new type of transition plan for ASA pilots. Such as 10 guaranteed slots in every Delta new hire class.......these ideas are obviously in the early stages but we have a few years to work out the details.

Take care all, and many thanks to ASA pilots,

NYR

 

[Tim47SIP]

General

I understand everything you are saying. The one point that I was not clear on is that after the two furloghed guys were done talking to the MEC reps, the were both told me they were convinced of a few of things.
1. DALPA does not want anything less than 100-110 seaters on the property.
2. They felt that they would not be back in the seat with mainline for a minimum of five years which I certainly hope is not the case.
3. Delta will buy more 70 and some 90 seaters in the future and that they will be going to DCI.

So, Based on their assessments, DALPA will negotiate and fly the 100-110 seat aircraft. 90 and below will have to go somewhere. DCI has been capped at 57/58 70 seaters. Do you feel that DALPA will eventually reconsider their stance and try to get the 70+ seaters on the Delta property, or still try to hold DCI to its current limitations? My take is a combination of both as I would hope that the furloughed guys would remain a contensious issue and somewhat a priority. Anyway, I guess time will tell.

Also, are negotiations still going on with mainline and management, or is that on hold? Thanks.

 

[surplus1]

However with regards to ASA, the deal was basically......support the idea of hiring Delta pilots w/o seniority resignation and we will set up a program of some sort for your pilots. My energy will be focused on trying to suggest some good ideas for ASA pilots who want to come over. It must be a GOOD program for them. This is a good chance to incourage pilot group cooperation for the future furloughed pilots. So as you can see, in my opinion we will need to come up with a new type of transition plan for ASA pilots. Such as 10 guaranteed slots in every Delta new hire class.......these ideas are obviously in the early stages but we have a few years to work out the details.

That's interesting. It's also interesting how perspectives can differ depending on where you sit.

First, it is nice that you think the ASA pilots "did something special" for you guys. Second, it is nice that you are thinking you might want to "do something special" for them -- and you have a few years to mull it over.

Since I have a little different perspective from the one that you have, this is how what you said sounds to me.

1. You all said -- Give us what we want now and, at some unspecified time in the future, give or take a few years, we will think about what we might do for you in exchange. In the meantime, we will make you feel good by patting you on the head.

2. A few months ago you loudly and publicly proclaimed to the world that you wanted to help your furloughed pilots, that you wished them to be offered preferential hiring, without seniority resignation at two airlines of your choice (you named them) and, in exchange for this, you were offering preferential hiring at your airline for the pilots of these two carriers.

3. You got what you wanted from one of the two carriers and the other chose not to grant your wish list. You then proclaimed loudly and publicly that the pilots of the granting carrier had supported you and were blessed and that the pilots of the other carrier had spurned you and would henceforth be dam*ed.

The fact is that the pilots of the granting carrier did nothing. I think your leaders did not even meet with their leaders. The management of that carrier (who happen to be direct employees of your carrier) gave you what you wanted and the pilots of that carrier simply did not object. Good for you good for them.

In contrast your pilot leaders did meet with the leaders of the second carrier who decided that your public offer of a quid pro quo --- preferential hiring for you in exchange for preferential hiring for them --- was insincere (bogus) and if fact an "offer" on which you could not deliver and had no intention of delivering. The fact is The management of the second carrier did not change its policy and the pilots of that carrier simply did not object.

4. Here we are now, several months later, and your post begins to reveal the truth of your thinking and the false nature of your leader's original proffer.

a) You got the advantage you wanted from carrier number 1. You now state "we will set up a program of some sort" (forgive me if I have trouble seeing that as "preferential hiring" -- which was your original and public proffer.)

b) You go on to say you will focus on "trying to suggest some good ideas for ASA pilots" (what they might be is anybody's guess). That is noble, but again it doesn't sound to me like anything close to preferential hiring which again was your original offer when you wanted something.

c) Next you say "This is a good chance to incourage pilot group cooperation for the future furloughed pilots." Sounds like you're upping the ante. You got some current protection (be it small) in exchange for an offer you don't intend to keep. Now you want to lock it in for "future furloughed pilots" -- which if it happens (I hope it won't) will almost certainly be your pilots once more. Hmmmm ... does this resemble more "pie in the sky"?

d) You continue further to say "we will need to come up with a new type of transition plan __ Such as 10 guaranteed slots in every Delta new hire class ....... but we have a few years to work out the details."

Does that smack of a "flow-through/flow-back" of some sort or do I just have a vivid imagination? Where is the preferential hiring that you offered originally? Did you just forget that you made that offer --- in public?

I realize that these are only "your opinions" but I have to tell you that in my opinion, they are a pretty accurate indicator of the thought process and modus operandi that is prevelant in your group.

[We must] Give you whatever you want now. If we don't, you will bury us later. If we do, you will make "offers" that you not only can't keep, but had no intention of trying to keep. Once you get whatever you wanted then, after the fact, you will have "a few years" (your words) to work out the details of what you might really try to do, while seizing any opportunity to get even more than what you wanted originally.

I have to hand it to you man, you all are the masters of smoke and mirrors. It's pretty clear to me however, that you make promises you can't keep and never intend to keep, you try to play folks for suckers, you renig on your highly publicized "offers", and you get mad at and threaten those who see your "magic show" for the farce that it was and is. You see all that as GOOD. I ask you ___ good for whom?

Nothing personal Rangers, just a different perspective.

 

[FLB717]

Surplus1,

YOU SIR ARE 100% CORRECT!!!

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

Since you know that NY Rangers is furloughed and you reminded him that he might have "a few years to mull it over" (nice), I think you should understand a few things here. First off, we do not know exactly what will happen when hiring resumes in a FEW years. But, we do know one thing for sure, and that is that NONE of us will forget the treatment by the Comair pilots' MEC/ Management. Most of us on the line and all of the furloughs thought it was a slap in the face. As far as ASA's participation, we really do thank them (or whoever is responsible) for their help. I think NY Rangers was just thinking aloud, and that is his opinion. (this is an opinion board) But, guys like us WILL be there when hring does resume in a few years, and we will be offering suggestions and reminding people who treated the furloughs well. That is a fact. The retired pilots will absolutely be a part of the process, and we will absolutely talk to them and give them our opinions before it all starts up again. Then, they can do whatever they want. Everybody will be aware of the situation, that is for sure. I can't say that 50% of the class will be ASA etc..... But, the people "in the know" will KNOW about their help, along with Chataqua's. What's wrong with that? They actually attempted to help our pilots in their time of need. I don't know one pilot in the ATL crew lounge that DOESN'T know that fact. We shall see.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[sidseal]

Couple of questions...

1. Buddy of mine works at a Fractional. This Fractional requires a pilot to give up his seniority number if he is furloughed. Is it safe to assume that since a Delta guy would have to give up his #, that any pilots from this Fractional stand no chance at getting hired at Delta?

2. Another friend of mine flies a G-IV for a Fortune 500 company. There is no way in hell you could get on with this flight department without giving up your seniority number. Is it safe to assume that this friend of mine stands no chance at getting hired at Delta (not that he gives a s.h.i.t.)?

Things that make you go hmmmm................................

 

[tbkane]

First your post has no relevance. We are talking about Delta commuters trying to help out the furloughees from Delta. So where does your post make mention to that.

As far as the rest of your post obviously they would not get preferential hiring so the point is mute, this is between the Delta mainline and commuter feed airlines.

 

[sidseal]

Excuse me, your holiness!

 

[General Lee]

Sidseal,

TBKANE is close to holiness for us, so be nice to him. The key point here is that Comair and ASA are twins in reality (except for some ATRs), and ASA management allowed our guys help, and Comair's didn't. Let's look at it another way----compare it to the current UN problems with the USA and France. The USA will not reward France anything as long as they are being obstinate----but will reward other countries---like Italy---for being friendly. I do not hate all of the French citizens, but I dislike the French Government. That goes the same for the Comair pilots in general, I do not dislike them. But, why reward them when their leaders make it harder for our people. I hope that was a good analogy for you.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[acaTerry]

Somewhere, the term "REGIONAL JET" lost its intent and meaning.

 

[General Lee]

With the range of some of the "RJs", I believe they are now being called "Small jets" or SJs.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Hammer66]

One question I would like to ask to Mr. Lee is "What if the tables were turned?" Some of you guys at mainline think there should always be someone there to help you in times of need. My question to you is this: If Comair or ASA were furloughing and Delta mainline happened to be in a great hiring mode would you be helping us with jobs and so-called hiring preference without giving up our seniority? I THINK NOT. We're both owned by the same company right? The simple answer is that people at the mainline level seem to think that stepping into a regional airline or stepping back into a regional airline temporarily is a step backwards. WRONG. At this point, in my opinion (and many others at the regional level) think it is a lateral move, and many of you at mainline hate to see that. So many people are out on the street and many, like at USAirways think they can take other peoples jobs (i.e. Jets4Jobs) and keep their seniority as well at their big brother. Thats two jobs if you ask me. Think about it. Again, this is just my opinion, so fire away at how you think, but when you're on the job I hope you treat us fellow DCI guys just like anyone else, with respect. We're just trying to make things work and keep moving in these trying times. Cya! Contact Departure 28.7

Hammer66

 

[cooter]

G.L.,
This idea that commuters should help out mainline with regard to this issue is not appropriate. Your MEC has continually put the other pilot groups in a position where they are, in essence, competing against you and each other, all in the name of the Delta financial statements. The ultimate bargain tool is unity. Has there been a time that the Delta MEC has tried to unify the groups, rather than fragment them, or this concept not in the "thought processes/modus operandi" of your leadership?
Cooter
in addition: WWJD?

 

[General Lee]

Hammer66,

Ummmm, ok...? Can you tell me one time where one of the regionals started furloughing and the Major was not? I am waiting. It has never happened, and since you are paid less at the regionals, I doubt it will. Usually the Major furloughs, not the other way around. As far as treating DCI guys with respect, I think that since most of our recent new hires were from the regionals and not as much from the Military, I think that was absolutely starting to happen. Then some of the regionals, OK--mainly one---slapped us in the face when we needed help. Your argument doesn't make sense becuase it hasn't happened and probably won't. We all know you fly very advanced airplanes and your wages need improving, but slapping us when we need your help isn't going to help your cause in our eyes. ASA and in some way Chataqua have really helped their cases when it comes to helping our guys in need. To say that that will not be rememebered is ridiculous and wrong. When we start hiring again some time in the future, I WILL be down at the GO talking to people---you can bank on that. (I bet I won't be the only one)
Contact Departure on 28.7, and before you do, your gear is still down---Good--AYE.


Cooter,

Unity. Well, we could all have it if we had a staple and not date of hire like the senior Comair guys want. That is just unrealistic. Also, Delta wouldn't go for that, and we all know that. As far as helping us during troubled times, we already gave DCI a huge percentage increase in our overall flying---that resulted in many more upgrades. Unfortunately for ASA/Comair---Chataqua is now getting a lot of that because they are cheaper (I want to see the new TA). ASA also has a contract they are trying to negotiate, and the company is now apparently going to Comair for concessions. This is a mess, but Dalpa wants to keep our fleet around the same size so mainline doesn't die, and Comair wants to grow and is mad that we have limits that protect us. ASA just wants a pay increase, which they deserve---but the timing is bad. Mainline wants to keep big planes around with the higher salaries, and Comair wants more 70 seaters that will replace a lot of mainline---look at the current expansion of the 70 seaters----without the checks and balances the 737-200s would be gone, and so would more high paying jobs. Unity is good, unitl one side wants to take advantage of a bad situation. The Comair guys should want to eventually go up to mainline and get one of those higher paying jobs eventually. Boy, did they ruin it for themselves.


Bye Bye--General Lee