definition of PIC

[AviatorTim]

I'm flying SIC in a Citation Ultra. This is the first time I've been type rated in the right seat so I'm wondering what's the apporpriate way to log the legs I fly. It's my understanding there are two definitions of PIC, one for the sole manipulator of the controls by an appropriately rated pilot and one for the person bearing ultimate authority for the flight (i.e. the Captain). Is there an Advisory Circular or some official guidance from the FAA how to log your legs when you're rated in the aircraft?

 

[Swerpipe]

Set 2 columns on your log book

Hey Tim,

To put it simply the are two definitions: Part 1 and Part 61

Part 1- means ultimately responsible. The owner or operator of the aircraft we'll say "You are the Captain". It doesn't matter where you seat left or right, you are ultimately responsible. A PIC should always be designated.

Part 61-sole manipulator of the controls. You would seat on the left seat so that you can taxi the aircraft and you are flying the aircraft. You may be type rated but still not designated as the Captain.

At this point you should set up a new column in your log that says PIC Part 1 or PIC turbine part 1. If you haven't upgraded yet then wait until you do and then start logging on the PIC Part 1 column. If you did your checkride on the real airplane as opposed to the simulator then you can log that time as PIC Part 1. Airlines like Jet Blue and Southwest, when they say 1000 pic turbine, are refering to the PIC Part 1 not PIC Part 61.

For example, I am PIC at my company. If I fly with the boss then he is PIC and regardless of where I seat, I do not log on my Part 1 column. On one flight, my boss 90 day currency had expired, so I was the PIC Part 1 and I logged it even though he sat on the left and made all 3 landings (he could not be the PIC due to the lack of currency).

There are no advisory circulars that I know of, just the regs. Look at Part 61 and Part 1 for definitions. The reason it is significant is because airlines want you to have the PIC experience as the person ultimately responsible as opposed to sole manipulator of the controls. This is why it has become a big deal to log it as such. I have many friends that have gotten stuck at fractionals as FOs and while they fly on the left and even get Captain pay they are not designated PIC and are prevented from applying to places like SWA and JBLU.
I hope this clears it...

 

[avbug]

Is there an Advisory Circular or some official guidance from the FAA how to log your legs when you're rated in the aircraft?

14 CFR 61.51 is very clear on the logging of flight time.

Is there a definition of pilot in command? Pick up your regulations and read them. Part 1.1 provides that the pilot in command is the person ultimately responsible for the safe outcome of the flight. Whitness the following:

Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

Acting as pilot in command is not the same as logging pilot in command. There may only be one pilot in command on any given flight, but more than one person may log PIC; logging PIC is not the same as acting as pilot in command.

14 CFR 61.51(e) specifies the circumstances under which you may log PIC. Swervepipe is correct in noting that many employers are only interested in the time you were actually pilot in command, not what you were able to log as sole manipulator.

 

[jeff333]

This PIC issue has always been a bunch of poop. Ok a guy has 900 PIC TP and 5000 SIC 737. These 1000 PIC bean counter nerd recruitment airlines will not hire him, but will hire a BE-1900 Capt with 1000 PIC and no jet time.

 

[hawg2hawk]

Here's one for you:

Translating military time into your civilian logbook is fun.

Solo flights in the T-37 and T-38 (both twin jets), I logged as solo because I was still a military student pilot and also didn't have my civilian MEL rating.

In the A-10 (no 2 seaters in operation), first and subsequent flights were all solo. Initially I logged the time in my civilian logbook as "solo" because although I had a civilian multi rating, I didn't yet have an AF form 8 (aircraft qualification) in the aircraft. After I completed the A-10 qual course I began logging PIC. I'd have to look to be sure, but I'm pretty sure the AF doesn't count that time as PIC either. That's funny, I had no doubt who the PIC was on all my "solo" rides. You may wonder how we logged practice instrument approaches, but that's another story.

In the HH-60, which I fly now, the AF tracks Primary and Secondary time, which translates closely to "sole manipulator of controls." When it goes in the civilian logbook though, it's all either PIC, SIC, or instructor. Most of the time.

This is the reason I quit using paper logbooks.

 

[AviatorTim]

Part 61

Swerpipe,

Part 61 says "a commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight during which that person--(i)is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has priveledges (ii) is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or (iii)is acting as pilot-in-command for an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft".

On a search of the regs on the FAA's website, this was the only place I found the phrase "sole manipulator of the controls". In this context, it appears to be one of three criteria (i,ii, iii) that must be met to log PIC. In other words, I took this to mean you must be sole occupant or acting as pilot-in-command in addition to being sole manipulator of the controls. Do you take this to mean that you can log PIC is you meet any of the three criteria like (i) being sole manipulator of the controls?

Tim

 

[JeffSKDTW]

Tim -

Note the "or" connecting all of the permissible activities for logging PIC. You do not need to meet two or three of those elements, just one will suffice.

 

[Swerpipe]

sole manipulator if properly rated

Swerpipe,

Part 61 says "a commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight during which that person--(i)is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has priveledges

So, if you are rated and sole manipulator you can log PIC per part 61. Now, if your job wanted to only consider time you were acting pic then that time doesn't count. Hope that clears it.

It would be smart to set pu your log to track that. Take care