Debrief - Lessons Learned - DL/NWA Contract

[justin15e]

I was wondering if those guys and gals from DL/NWA could speak up a bit about their merger contract.

Did they just scrap the NWA contract and go with the DL one and add an LOA to the end or was it more extensive than that?

I guess the difference here with the CAL/UA joint contract in negotiations is that both unions contracts have already expired and both are looking for a full re-write, whereas the DL and NWA contracts were not officially "amendable" yet.

From what I understand, the NWA contract just went away. Were there protections in the NWA contract that DL didn't have that you migrated over to the updated DL contract? Were there items from the old NWA contract that were taken away as a result of merging?

If you had to go back and do it over again, what would you make sure was added into the new contract that was not foreseen, but it can be felt now that you've been together for a while?

Please help the CAL/UA guys. Everything they get in their new contract makes it that much easier for you to get the next time around the horn.

 

[bluechunks]

Please help the CAL/UA guys. Everything they get in their new contract makes it that much easier for you to get the next time around the horn.

I think you are about 18-24 months behind the UA/CO negotiating committees. The experts have been working on this long before the merger was even publicly announced.

Just saying.

 

[clippyrip]

They went with the quickest thing and that was a mostly DAL contract. Hopefully in the future, we can pull some of the gems that NWA had and get them in the new contract.

 

[justin15e]

Um, so you don't want to share what went wrong that was unforseen?

Apparently everything went perfect right and the UA/CO negotiating committees won't make any mistakes.

Although I have a lot of confidence in the UA/CO negotiating committees, I'm a "Trust, but verify" kind of guy.

I don't have blind faith in the guys in ALPA, nor should anyone.

Can anyone with personal opinions from DL/NWA please share with everyone what they missed in their Joint agreement that should have been in the agreement, however was missing to the detriment of their pilots.

In the same line, since the CAL management has been offering DL + $1, there are still things that need to be fixed in the DL contract, what are parts that need the biggest improvements?

 

[justin15e]

They went with the quickest thing and that was a mostly DAL contract. Hopefully in the future, we can pull some of the gems that NWA had and get them in the new contract.

Sounds to me there were items that were lost during the agreement according to this statement.

What were these gems and why didn't they get put in the joint agreement?

Do you want CAL/UA guys to miss these items too so that when DL comes up to bat, they can't point to the new UA contract and use that as a talking point.

We're all in this profession together boys and girls. If we don't help each other out, we're bound to all make the same mistakes.

Wow, I guess the DL/NWA integration really was the perfect agreement and there were no unintended consequences to the pilot groups there?

Hrmm, who knew?

 

[clippyrip]

My point was that the contract was done predicated on speed and so they went with the DAL contract.

Looking back as a pre merger NWA guy, I see some things in the DAL contract that were inferior to NWA. Not all, just some. Reserve rules and commuting rules to name a couple.

Hopefully, your two groups can cherry pick and pull the best of each contact and make a superior one than either group has now. This was what we did not do and will hopefully do in the future.

The main problem that caused this was that the NWA pay rates were lower and so the DAL folks figured that the pay increase we received would cover the inequities we did not receive.

 

[clippyrip]

If you two can keep the egos out of the equation, look at this as a merger of equals and work together, you will be ahead of the DAL/NWA merger.

We were bickering because some saw it as an acquisition and also saw NWA as inferior and that created troubles when we sat at the table to discuss.

Also, if you can separate the contact talks from SLI(seniority list integration) you'll be ahead as well. In regards to the contract, you both should want the best that you can get. In regards to the SLI, you both will naturally try to one up the other.

 

[pilotgolfer]

In the same line, since the CAL management has been offering DL + $1, there are still things that need to be fixed in the DL contract, what are parts that need the biggest improvements?

They offered the Delta contract because they want the same scope agreement that Delta has.

 

[clippyrip]

They offered the Delta contract because they want the same scope agreement that Delta has.

If you do go that route, be sure to have the same flow down agreement that we had with Compass and seat pull if they furlough. Those provisions cost the company if the decide to furlough and why I believe we did not furlough. It would have taken 36 months to pay for those costs and made it not cost effective.

 

[BoilerUP]

CAL's scope (and the jobs it protects by owning 51+ seats) should be valued higher in a JCBA than any pay rate or work rule...

 

[pilotgolfer]

If you do go that route, be sure to have the same flow down agreement that we had with Compass and seat pull if they furlough. Those provisions cost the company if the decide to furlough and why I believe we did not furlough. It would have taken 36 months to pay for those costs and made it not cost effective.

When the DL/NWA merger took place...neither had pilots on furlough at the time...is that correct? Weren't they both hiring when it went down? A flowdown wouldn't do any good to us furloughed guys because the company would never agree to retrain us as RJ pilots...unless, of course, those airplanes were United's and flown by United pilots or Continental pilots...whatever they are going to call them.

 

[clippyrip]

When the DL/NWA merger took place...neither had pilots on furlough at the time...is that correct?

We both had pilots on furlough. We were hiring and they were given the option to return but bypassed it with the option to recall again at a later date.

 

[clippyrip]

CAL's scope (and the jobs it protects by owning 51+ seats) should be valued higher in a JCBA than any pay rate or work rule...

I would agree. Keep your scope and build your own new contract from the best that each has to offer. If you cave on scope then that will lead to furloughs at mainline once the seniority lists are merged. The combination of broader scope and elimination of route overlap between the two carriers can be bad for those on the bottom.

 

[densoo]

They offered the Delta contract because they want the same scope agreement that Delta has.

Funny thing. They forgot to include the $650M incentive the DAL pilots got to sign that contract. I'm sure it was just an oversight.

 

[pilotgolfer]

We both had pilots on furlough. We were hiring and they were given the option to return but bypassed it with the option to recall again at a later date.

I understand that...I guess what I should have said was that everyone had already been given the option of coming back. So when they did the SLI, those guys who bypassed recall still got put into the mix according to whatever formula was used. They weren't put at the bottom of the list just because they were not active.

 

[clippyrip]

I understand that...I guess what I should have said was that everyone had already been given the option of coming back. So when they did the SLI, those guys who bypassed recall still got put into the mix according to whatever formula was used. They weren't put at the bottom of the list just because they were not active.

Correct.

 

[General Lee]

First, CAL/UAL guys have to get the JOINT contract before the SLI. When Dalpa negotiated with the company for the Joint Contract, the timing was of course bad---oil was at $130 a barrel and looking to go higher. Whatever you do, do not let scope get away from you. Agree to current 70 seat RJs, but make sure they go away when the contracts expire. Also, curb the amount of large props like the Dash-8-400, which are replacing your 737-500s in EWR and soon to be IAH. Then go for pay and rules. Go for higher than DL please. A big pay raise will help cushion the blow to UAL guys who get relative seniority on the new list. It will happen. And, again, get insurance for all pilots starting day 1, not 6 months down the line after being hired. Keep those percentage points going up for the DC fund for the UAL guys, and keep that pension for the CAL guys. You can live with both, you just need to try to make it seem fair. Good luck.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Go for broke. We proved the merger works, and your will too. Your companies need it to compete.

Look at both CBA's and take the best. With as big as you are, they will want to follow the DAL template. They also know that we are batter up in the section six game and any gains by you will be demanded here. There is a safe zone with that.

 

[jtf]

Can either or both pilot group torpedo the merger? Management seems to want it more than the rest of the employees so if it is possible to scuttle it, please use that threat to your advantage to help yourselves to a better contract and the rest of us with a raised bar. If labor can kill the deal, it is the best negotiating tool outside of the threat of strike that I can think of and should be used to full advantage. Please shove scope up management's butt for the rest of us!