Dash 8's on 27 @ PHL

[Stick Man]

Can anyone help with some info? *

This situation may take place at other Class B's but I am curious re: one in particular.

I am just curious as to why Dash 8's in PHL are utilizing 27 for T/O and landing when 17/35 seems to be available (considering wind components)?

I believe that many RJ's are attempting to use the shorter (but just as safe as far as the FAR's dictate) runways at least for landing, if not for takeoff. I know that some RJ drivers can't due to loads, others don't due to a desire to muck up the process even further at PHL, and some flat out refuse due to fear.

It seems that when the winds are out of the N or strong out of the NW, I can see that PHL ATC (in all of their wisdom and knowledge) would prefer that the Dash 8's T/O on 27 when departing for a southerly destination or routing, but it seems like 9 times outta 10, the 8's are going off of 27 when winds are not a factor (either 260 on the money or calm).

If anyone can shed some light on this subject I would appreciate it - especially when I'm 14th in line behind at least 3 dashes in the sequence for 27L.

* - without the usual verbal bashing that takes place on this site.

 

[nyboilermaker]

You have it right.

PHL prefers to use 17 for South departures if the winds are calm or favoring the the runway. They use 08 for South departures too. If the winds are West or North [or in between], they use 27L.

Once and awhile we'll depart 35 with an expedited left climbing turn over the tower, but it still interferes with the arrivals [I think if they "miss" off 27R/L, plus, the departure controllers need the same room anyway enroute to the first fix].

One last thing, remember that there are no departures off 26 because of the terminal. Good planning for a 325 million dollar runway.

-PDT NYBoilermaker




"PDT and ALG merger-DOH is the only right way." -Don't screw your brother's and sister's like you've been screwed before."

 

[higherflyer]

Can anyone help with some info? *

I believe that many RJ's are attempting to use the shorter (but just as safe as far as the FAR's dictate) runways at least for landing, if not for takeoff. I know that some RJ drivers can't due to loads, others don't due to a desire to muck up the process even further at PHL, and some flat out refuse due to fear.

* - without the usual verbal bashing that takes place on this site.

This is not "the usual verbal bashing that takes place on this site", but you might want to rethink the way you worded your statement above.

You are right, loads can and may dictate using (or not using) specific runways. I don't know of too many pilots who seriously have "a desire to muck up the process even further at PHL". Call it what you want, but I wouldn't use the word fear to describe pilots who do not want to use and refuse to use 26.

The shorter "but just as safe as far as the FAR's dictate" runway you are referring to may be there and available for use. Yes, there is no real "safety" distinction in the FAR's. Try to defend yourself when something unexpected happens and the decision to land on 26 results in a runway overrun or sliding off the runway, etc. resulting in aircraft damage or worse.

Many airlines (RJ operators) are encouraging their flight crews to use 26 in order to improve the flow into PHL. Ask yourself: the worst happens and the FAA is up your backside about your decision to use 26 (at 5000') instead of the perfectly good 27R (at 9500') or even 27L (at 10500'). What do you think the FAA will say when you tell them you elected to land on 26 to help improve the traffic flow into the airport and your company encouraged you to do so? Is your chief pilot/director of ops sitting next to you backing you up? Maybe, but probably not. They are in their office(s) writing memos with weasel phrases like "use runway 26 should circumstances permit". What in the world does that mean? It means: your ticket on the line; the final decision is yours. Did you decide to muck up the process even further or did you refuse 26 due to fear. No. As PIC, you made the decision based on safe operations of your aircraft at that specific date and time.

When making the decision, you had better pay attention to conditions at the airport (what are the winds doing, what are the runway condition), your abilities at that moment (is this the last leg on a 12 hour day, have you been fighting weather the entire day), and what is the condition of the aircraft. Under the right conditions you could land a CRJ, ERJ or even 757 on 26. But, is it safe to do so? Are you being pressured to do so by some ops memo or the desire "not to muck up the process further", or are you trying to be a cowboy.

Be safe, fly safe and have fun.

Not bashing, just another thoughtful viewpoint.

 

[N813CA]

I agree with higherflyer

But not only that I use to work for Piedmont Airlines and I know fly an RJ. When I flew the Dash 8 we were always fixing PHL controllers mess ups. We were doing S turns 1,000 above the ground even though we were doing the speed they asked us to. If you are a true major carrier and not Mesa why do you care if it takes you 40 minutes to takeoff? You get paid by the minute. I mean come on even the Dash 8 drivers got paid by the minute. Also from what I found when I was working for Piedmont we would beg for a 17/35 departure because it would get us home faster then having to wait inline, but they would decline it because they have curtain departures you know that thing called Jeppesen that they would have to use certain runways.

 

[j41driver]

....especially when I'm 14th in line behind at least 3 dashes in the sequence for 27L.

So if the Dashes weren't there you'd move all the way up to number 11. Quit pointing fingers at the Dash drivers.

Did you ever think that it might have to do with the controllers in PHL? They seem to be some of the worst that I've encountered.