Currency Question

[DrEvil]

Hello all,

I notice in the FARs the typical currency such as 3 Takeoff and Landings in the preceding 90 days. With that said, my quesiton is, is TODAY day 1 or is yesterday day 1 of the currency count?

Can someone please clarify or are some of us miscalculating currency by one day? Please elaborate those of you FAR experts.

Thanks!

 

[paulkinzelman]

It really doesn't matter what we think
about the English of the reg. What matters is what the FAA thinks and enforces. Call your local FSDO to find out.

I called mine, and he said that today is day number 1. And it has to be this way to be consistent with how annuals and medicals are interpreted. For instance, if 'In the previous 12 months" were interpreted as last month was month number 1, then you'd have 13 month annuals and medicals, etc. and we all know that's not the case.

 

[pilotyip]

don't count the current day

Like medicals within the preceding six months for a 1st class medical. taken in Jan is good until the end of july, seven months 1,2,3,4,5,6, & 7. Like a 6 month PC is due within six months not counting the month in which it was given. PC given in Jan (1) plus six ='s Jul (7). (this does not include the grade period of 30 days) Using the same approach to fly on the 1st of April you would be legal with three landings on 1st of Jan same year, however you would have to log three landings on the 1st of April in order to legally fly on Apr 2nd. Within the preceding 90 days, does not count the current day.

 

[A Squared]

Paul,

One of the basic principals of law is that the law is what the words of the law say. If the law is written in clear words, it cannot be interpreted differently. For example: If the speed limit sign says 40 MPH, you may not interpret that as 50 MPH, and a police officer may not interpret that as 30 MPH. The speed limit is 40 mph. Yes, most states have laws about speeds appropriate to the existing conditions, but absent special conditions, the speed limit is 40, just like the sign says. A law or regulation which is not ambiguous is not subject to "interpretation"

The regulation regarding takeoff and landing currency is clear and unambiguous. Preceding means only one thing in the English language: going before.

Let’s get rid of the number 90 for a moment, as that may be confusing you. Suppose the regulation said that you may not act as pilot in command unless you had made 3 takeoffs and landings in the preceding day. That’s it; just one day, "the preceding day". So if today is Monday, what is the preceding day? Sunday, or Monday? It should be obvious that the day preceding Monday is Sunday, not Monday. A day cannot possible precede itself. It just ain’t possible. So, what if the regulation said the "preceding 2 days", what would that mean if today is Monday? What are the 2 days preceding Monday? Saturday and Sunday? Or Sunday and Monday ? Again, Monday cannot precede Monday. The 2 days preceding Monday are Saturday and Sunday. And thus it is with "the preceding 90 days". The phrase "the preceding 90 days" is every bit as clear and unambiguous as "the preceding day" or "the preceding 2 days". "the preceding 90 days cannot include today, as once again, a day cannot precede itself.

Now, you say that you called your FSDO and were told that you must count the present day. That may be, but you need to understand a couple of things: An inspector has no absolutely no authority to interpret regulations. An interpretation from an inspector has absolutely no value whatever. If you want some entertainment, ask that inspector to put his words in writing on official FAA letterhead and print and sign his name at the bottom so you can "have something official", then watch him backpedal. Issuing legal interpretations is the sole province of FAA Legal Counsel. The only interpretation which has any official standing is one issued by the FAA’s Legal Counsel. It is more than probable that the inspector you spoke with just doesn’t know what the regulation is. It is certainly not his job to start enforcing a regulation contrary to the way it is written. Besides, inspectors do not decide enforcement actions. They gather what evidence they believe supports a violation and submit it to counsel for a determination of a violation. Presumably .... hopefully.....if the inspector you spoke with initiated an investigation of a pilot based on his belief that preceding 90 days included the present day, the legal counsel would find no violation.

The inspector’s comments about medicals and annuals have no bearing on the question and serve to show that he has a poor understanding of the regulations. The issue of medicals is completely irrelevant. The regulation stating the duration of a medical certficate (61.23) is worded completely differently and doesn’t contain the word "preceding", or even "previous", so has no bearing on what "preceding" means. The regulation regarding annual inspections does use "preceding" but your inspector is incorrect on it’s interpretation. We do in fact have 13 month annuals. If the annual inspection for your airplane was performed and signed on July 1, 2002, you may operate that aircraft until July 31, 2003. Now, sit down with a calendar and count how many months in the time period from July 1, 2002, through July 31, 2003. If you come up with some number other than 13, you may want to repeat kindergarten. Of course, if your annual inspection was signed off on July 31, 2002, it still ends on July 31, 3003 and it’s only a 12 month annual. The fact that your inspector seems not to grasp these basic concepts is a general indication of his cluelessness.

Now, If you can show me a written legal interpretation from FAA’s General Counsel, which states that "preceding" includes the present day, than I will concede that is the way the FAA interprets preceding. I will however maintain that it is an incorrect interpretation, and one that should be overruled by an appeal, if that point of law ever came up in a real court (as opposed to an NTSB kangaroo court)

So, absent a ruling by FAA Legal Counsel, preceding means exactly what it has meant for centuries, going before, and just as certainly, a day cannot go before itself any more than you can go in front of yourself in line for the movies.



regards

 

[DrEvil]

A^2,

Well, again, this goes into how you want to hack the clock to count a day. Is it a calendar day, or is it 24 hours? If I take a preceding day from NOW, i.e. 10:00pm, I include all activities from now until 10:00pm last night, is this not preceding?

I believe that this currency starts NOW, this minute, and goes back 90 days (or however many minutes that is), plus you get a few extra as it's like an end-of-month, whereas it's end-of-day, giving full time of the last day of the period.

You state preceding meaning, any flight activity today doesn't count towards the currency, it's yesterday and prior that counts, this makes no sense. I believe that your 90 day look back for this particular currency goes back from this minute, this day, then 89 more prior days, all of which is preceding time.

Amazing how many ways to look at this. It would be nice if the FAR's provided a sample to clear up this apparent ambiguity.

 

[Neal]

Currency

Guys....you make this way to dificult...this is a simple thing that you all are reading way too much into!

A Squared....lets say that you haven't flown in 6 months then one day you decide to do 3 landings in the morning.....what you are saying about "preceeding" would mean that you couldn't fly til the next day! That makes no sense and is not correct!

If I haven't flown in 6 months...then go out one morning and do the 3 landings...I CAN and am legal to fly passengers on that same day!

Mark

 

[A Squared]

Yes, it does depend on what the definition of "day" is. I can't say for certain what day means in this context.

If a "day" is a period of 24 consecutive hours, then I think we all agree that any takeoffs and landings which were performed within 90 24 hour periods, or within 2160 hours before the flight begins would count toward currency. Anything more than 2161 hours before the flight doesn't count, right?

If "day" means "calendar day", the period between 0000 hours and 2359:59 hours, either local time or zulu time, then we are faced with the choice of considering the current day a preceding day, which is a logical impossibility, or discounting landings and takeoffs performed in the current day, which as Dr. Evil and Mark pointed out, doesn't make sense.

I would maintain that if "day" means "calendar day" then the regulation is interpreted as 90 days plus whatever fraction of the current day.

I'm going to recant something I wrote earlier, that the issue of medicals and annual inspections are irrelevant. OK, they’re not completely irrelevant. They are different regulations, and 61.23, is worded completely differently, but they may shed some light on the FAA’s intent. Neither issue is definitive for the takeoff and landing issue, but both show that the FAA tends to favor "the stated number of time units, plus a fraction"

In 91.409 which covers annual inspections, has similar language to 61.57(a) in that it refers to "within the preceding 12 calendar months". Depending on when during the month an annual is performed, an annual may be good for 12 calendar months, plus a day, or it might be good for 12 calendar months plus 30 and 3/4 days ..... if it was signed off early on the first day of the month. This has the same difficulty as the t/o-landing issue, in that it seems to imply that an annual signed during the current month wouldn’t count until the next month. To my knowledge, no-one has been violated for flying the same month their annual was signed.

The regulation covering medicals (61.23) doesn’t use "preceding" but states very clearly what the valid period is. All valid periods are described as expiring at "the end of the last day of the nth month after the month of the examination". So a first class medical is good for 6 months plus a fraction of a month, up to 30-3/4 days, a second class is good for 12 months plus a fraction and a third class is good for 36 months plus a fraction.

As I said, neither proves definitively what the answer is, but they do show that the FAA tends toward a more permissive application of stated time periods.

regards

 

[paulkinzelman]

To address mostly A^2's reply...

Everything you said makes sense, but like I said before, it really is irrelevant. And what you say about the inspector's power is probably correct too.

[slight aside... a friend of mine got a ticket on an interstate in MA doing like 30 during a snowstorm even tho the snow wasn't sticking and visibility was good.]

But when you go before the FAA/NTSB judge, I think it's pretty clear they'll interpret 'previous' as counting today as day 1 for counting backwards 90 because it's the same wording as the annual inspection.

And the FAA written test has several questions whose correct (according to them) answer depends on counting this month as month #1 for 12 month annuals, not 13. Thus, today is day 1.

As to not being current yet on the day you do 3TO&L's... I bet the judge would go by the intent of the reg that you have 3TO&L's-worth of experience before passengers.

But the reason for this question had to do with software checking - and it would make sense to interpret today as day 1 as being more conservative.

However, for the software, there are 2 other problems nobody really addresses...

1) the regs reguire TO&L, not just landings and most don't log takeoffs. This matters if you takeoff less than 1 hr after sunset and land more than 1 hr after sunset.

2) You can LOG night flight AT sunset, but can't count it toward night currency until an hour after sunset

(and of course the reverse is true about sunrise).

 

[A Squared]

Paul,


>>>>>[slight aside... a friend of mine got a ticket on an interstate in MA doing like 30 during a snowstorm even tho the snow wasn't sticking and visibility was good.]

Yeah, once it's anything but sunny skies and dry pavement the speed limit is what's "appropriate" to the conditions and appropriate *is* open to interpretation.

>>>>>>>>But when you go before the FAA/NTSB judge, I think it's pretty clear they'll interpret 'previous' as counting today as day 1 for counting backwards 90 because it's the same wording as the annual inspection.

I don't think that's clear at all. Yes, it is very similar wording to the 91.409, but that does not count the current month. An annual signed at on the first of the month is good through the end of that month a year later. If you believe that I am incorrect about that, let me know why you think that.


>>>>And the FAA written test has several questions whose correct (according to them) answer depends on counting this month as month #1 for 12 month annuals, not 13. Thus, today is day 1.

Which written test? which questions?


>>>>>But the reason for this question had to do with software checking - and it would make sense to interpret today as day 1 as being more conservative.

I'll agree that if you're writing software which others will use, it's best to program the most conservative interpretation unless you're very confidant of a more permissive interpretation. That way, the worst that can happen is a user could whine that you're *cheating* them out of one day's currency.

>>>>>1) the regs reguire TO&L, not just landings and most don't log takeoffs. This matters if you takeoff less than 1 hr after sunset and land more than 1 hr after sunset.

Good point, maybe you should write it so that you must log day takeoffs and night takeoffs.


>>>>>>>>>2) You can LOG night flight AT sunset, but can't count it toward night currency until an hour after sunset.


Well, the first statement is not true. You may log night flight during the period begining at the end of evening civil twilight and ending at the begining of morning civil twilight. Take a look at the definition of night in part 1. Evening civil twilight ends 30-40 minutes after sunset, depending on where you are.

regards

 

[paulkinzelman]

to A^2...
Wow, I am all screwed up. I looked again at the annual (which has the same wording) and you're right! To get the FAA questions right (I don't know the numbers, but they're something like if you get a plane inspected on Jan 15, you can fly it until Jan 31 of next year), their definition of previous means they count month 1 as the *previous* month when counting back 12 months, not the current month. I guess my brain goes into stupid mode whenever I talk to an FAA inspector. Sorry for the confusion.

So, from this, the 90 day currency should count the previous day as day 1. I stand corrected and logbookpro is too pessimistic.

I also stand corrected about the night logging stuff, again repeated from somebody who should know better and I didn't check.

As to landings, it'd require changes to logbookpro and it's probably not worth it, but we should be careful about how we log flights that extend over civil twilight.

OK, maybe I'll just go to bed now and hope tomorrow I'll be smarter.