Crunching the Numbers

[Sticky]

Hi all-



First of all, after reading the post about Indy Air's future, I want to wish all the crews there good luck. If Indy should not survive, I wish you guys and gals success with whatever you decide to do.



Basically, I was hoping to get some ideas here from all regional pilots out there, junior or senior. Currently, I don't work for the airlines but have been looking into it. From reading the various posts here, and basic common sense, it really seems like finical suicide to pursue an airline career. Is it realistic that a new hire today with the average regional won't see captain for 5-7 years? Of course thats only if your company doesn't go broke. After that, 5 more years at captain making in the low $40K-50K. Then, its off to the majors (USair for example) where you go back to making $20-$30k as an FO for another 5-7 years. Don't forget that if at any point your company goes under, you start from scratch all over again. If this scenario is realistic, why are their young and old pilots lining up to interview with these companies? Is this really as good as it gets? I know guys in my apartment building that barely made it through high school working at Lowes or Home Depot pulling in $50K working as an assistant manager at 27 years old. If a 25 year old gets hired by a regional tomorrow, won't it be 10+ years before they see $50k? Again, if their airline should fail, they have to start all over again at the bottom.



Hope I'm not insulting anyone, just wondering if anyone can confirm this and justify why someone would want this. There is Avatar that a fellow has here showing a older pilot with a sign that says “I MAKE $17,000 A YEAR”. Did he not know that was the pay when hired? Isn’t he extremely embarrassed of that? Why does he still work there? I’m sure he, just like me, made that much money working during high school. Wouldn’t you rather have a job that is not as neat/fun/cool as flying if it means you can own a home, invest, and save? After all, work is only 40 hours a week…



Well…just a couple of thoughts. Please feel free to correct me, but don’t turn this into a bashing contest.



Mike

 

[cosmotheassman]

I have one question for you first. How can you have 1500 hours with time in a 310 and not know anything about the airline business?

To answer your question: I've wanted to be a pilot since I was about 5 years old. I used to fly jumpseat with my father at the commuter he worked at, that is probably why I am so passionate about it. It's all I grew up thinking about. It's what makes me happy. If I could make $50,000 at Home Depot selling power tools or make $25,000 flying I would take the flying job every time. It's not about the money to me. It's about doing what makes you happy. The older I got, the more obvious this became. Working at Home Depot right out of high school is exactly what it is-- a job for someone right out of high school with no education.

 

[73belair]

If you have education to do something else go do it. Upgrades at the best of places are around 4 years or so. Some will say they are shorter here and there, but for the most part its about 4 years. Some regionals pay more than others. Yes first years sucks(!) no matter where you are, and at some places 2nd year isn't much better. Then there is if you are holding a line or on reserve. You can make a bunch more if you are a line holder.
What you stated is correct. The industry suck(s) right now. You will never make as much as pilots used to make.

 

[Sticky]

I have one question for you first. How can you have 1500 hours with time in a 310 and not know anything about the airline business?

Didn't I just tell what I know about it? I think thats a descent understanding for someone whos never worked for an airline. Are you being serious when you say you'd rather fly an airline for $25,000 then have another job that pays twice as much? I can see that if you're 21 years old. However, you said that as you got older, the more important it became to you to fly. You want to live in crashpad the rest of your life? Well...I'm only 25, but someday I'd like to own a house, land, invest, and save. Maybe even have a family. How on earth can anyone do that on $20-35K? Families making $60,000 dual are having a really difficult time where I live. The more I look into the airlines, the more crazy it seems. You're probably right 73belair, if someone can do something else other airline flying, they probably should.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Didn't I just tell what I know about it? I think thats a descent understanding for someone whos never worked for an airline. Are you being serious when you say you'd rather fly an airline for $25,000 then have another job that pays twice as much? I can see that if you're 21 years old. However, you said that as you got older, the more important it became to you to fly. You want to live in crashpad the rest of your life? Well...I'm only 25, but someday I'd like to own a house, land, invest, and save. Maybe even have a family. How on earth can anyone do that on $20-35K? Families making $60,000 dual are having a really difficult time where I live. The more I look into the airlines, the more crazy it seems. You're probably right 73belair, if someone can do something else other airline flying, they probably should.

You're obviously thinking about getting into this business for the wrong reasons. If you're coming to get a huge paycheck and live a cushy life, forget it. You'll have a LONG, MISERABLE career. If you truly love flying and enjoy having 16-18 days off a month, you will be able to enjoy the job. It seems that you think money is worth more than job satisfaction and that is why I'd suggest steering clear of this business. By the way, it is possible to live quite comfortably on a regional pilot's pay. Sure, you're not going to be making the big bucks for a few years until you make captain, but then you'll be able to make $65k-100k (working for a decent paying company). If you know any other jobs where you don't have to put in a few years of lower pay before earning a large salary, I suggest you take them. I can't think of any myself. You have to pay your dues in every profession.

P.S. Your facts about airline pay are very innacurate. Might I suggest you put some time into researching a little more before you start calling people idiots for earning first year pay at a regional. It's called paying your dues and it doesn't stay that way.

 

[Sticky]

You're obviously thinking about getting into this business for the wrong reasons. If you're coming to get a huge paycheck and live a cushy life, forget it. You'll have a LONG, MISERABLE career.

Who said anything about that? The reason I posted this was to see if I should expect to being making regional FO pay for 10 years. I know that after you've been captain for awhile the pay is fair (not huge). However, what concerns me the most is that it takes so many years to make a fair pay. If your airline goes under, you must start all over again with another regional. So it is possible that a new hire today will make in the middle $30K for first 5 years. If the airline folds, you’ll spend another 5 years making the same. In other words, a new hire today at 30 years old could still be making under $40K at 40 years old. Ouch. Don't know about you, but that sounds like a huge gamble to me.

 

[Caveman]

Ditto what DirkkDiggler said. While he was posting I did a little research on regional pay. The average new hire pay for the 11 operators listed on airlinepay.com that fly CRJ/ERJ equipment is $21 (range $19 - $23). 2nd year FO average is $30 (range $24 - $37). 5th year FO average is $35 (range $33 - $41). 5th year CA average $62 (range $59 - $68). 10th year CA average $72 (range $67 - $79).

Lowest 3 new hire: ASA/SkyWest $19, EXJ $20
Highest 3 new hire: AWAC/CMR $23, TSA/CHQ 22

Lowest 3 2nd year FO: PCL $24, TSA $25, PSA $27
Highest 3 2nd year FO: CMR $37, SKW $35, ASA $34

Lowest 3 5th year FO: EXJ $33, CHQ/PSA/PCL/TSA $34
Highest 3 5th year FO: CMR $41, SKW $38, ASA $37

Lowest 3 5th year CA: EXJ & Mesa $59, AWAC $60, TSA $61
Highest 3 5th year CA: CMR $68, SKW/CHQ $63

Lowest 3 10th year CA: EXJ $67, Mesa $68, TSA/AWAC $70
Highest 3 10th year CA: CMR $79, SKW $74, CHQ $73

All but three had 75 hour min guarantees. The 3 exceptions were 72, 74 & 76 hour guarantees.

Two things I got from this. First, despite all the bad press CHQ faired pretty well. Their 2nd -5th year FO pay was on the low side of average but everything else was near the top or on the high side of average.

Second, once you survive 1st year pay almost all the regionals pay a livable FO wage, not great but livable. Once you upgrade the pay isn't too bad no matter where you are. We'd all like more, but you can make a reasonable living flying for a regional.

 

[utahpilot]

this is from the thread at http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=38173&highlight=skywest+pay


Here is what I've made through the end of July. I've also been with Skywest for 5 years, lineholder, in the RJ (average credit of about 80-88 hours a month):

Regular Pay: $39,514
Per Diem: $3,370
Vacation Pay: $946
Training Pay: $1508
Holiday Pay: $1097
FSA Med Expense: $639
Total: $47,074

You can only figure on the first two items in your paycheck each month so based on those two numbers only, I'll make about $73,500 for the year (and I don't pick up any extra flying). When you add in the rest of those items, I'll make about 79K-80K.

and another guy added....

So far this year I am at around 32K total income. That includes per-diem and JRM pay. I am a 2nd year RJ FO at SkyWest ... @ 34.54/hr. Not sure how much I am "on target" to make, as I don't know if I can keep working like I have been. I do pick stuff up, and bid reserve "call-first" when they are short. Averaged 105 credit-hours per month for the last five months. I'm working hard...but I still have plenty of time off.

sounds better than a manager at Home Depot to me (not necessarily pay-wise, but lifestyle)

it all depends on what you want. there is no such thing as a 'secure' job anymore, not just at the airlines. personally, I love this job for the time off it gives me to pursue other things and other ways of producing income (real estate and investing for me). also, I do have a wife and kids. it can be done, it's all about lifestyle

good luck

 

[Twotter76]

Yes I think that your numbers are a bit off - in my first year at AWAC I made over $30,000 including per diem. And that was at $22 an hour. I now make $34 so you do the math. That was with some open time flying but even without it I could still have survived (barely) on first year pay. Yes the pay isnt what it used to be but then I don't do this for the money (but I wouldn't do it for nothing either). I love my job and I can't see myself doing anything else. BTW we have guys at my company on the BAe 146 making well over $100 an hour so I am sure that they aren't hurting too bad even though they still work for a "regional". I had an older pilot tell me once to do what you love and the money will eventually follow - good advice. I could certainly have been a lawyer making 6 figures but I would be miserable - I think i'll just keep my 17 days a month off thanks...

 

[DDpaysoff]

If Calex signs that deal. Nobody has any right to bash mesa anymore.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

If Calex signs that deal. Nobody has any right to bash mesa anymore.

Wrong thread dumba$$!

 

[73belair]

Too each his own (situation). I'm sure there are a bunch of you out there who (somehow) pulled in $30k in their first year or whatever. And some who make over $40k in there 2nd or something. But there are a LOT of us who didn't. My first year w2? $18k. Reserve the whole time. 2nd year will be MUCH better prolly around $34k. Flying naps (standups) and sometimes holding a line. Its an ok living, but only becuase I have a dual income with my wife. Upgrade time? 5-6 years at ASA, leaving me still about 3 years to upgrade. No money is not everything, but it really helps to pay the bills!

 

[climbhappy]

quote by dirkdiggler: If you truly love flying and enjoy having 16 to 18 days off a month, then.........


where is a job that currently gives 16 to 18 off , that's 3 streches of 4 and of one with an average of five days off.

with most airlines you get 10 to 12 these days. if you commute that's one non travel day off. it suxed . i won't do it again. that's why if my current gig goes tits up. i'm done.

sticky fingers,

it ain't worth it. getting bumped off flights and spending 10 in an airport waiting to get to work isn't cool fun or special.

the perks are going quick. so is the pay. the legacy carriers will as by proof of delta's new plan and us air's mostly focus on international flying. that's bigger planes , fewer pilots to fly them and the scraps, yes the scraps go to regional making 30 to 50 grand and the LCC.

the job is becoming no more significant than that of a city ot tour bus driver.


it's a shame too!

 

[DirkkDiggler]

quote by dirkdiggler: If you truly love flying and enjoy having 16 to 18 days off a month, then.........


where is a job that currently gives 16 to 18 off , that's 3 streches of 4 and of one with an average of five days off.

with most airlines you get 10 to 12 these days. if you commute that's one non travel day off. it suxed . i won't do it again. that's why if my current gig goes tits up. i'm done.

sticky fingers,

it ain't worth it. getting bumped off flights and spending 10 in an airport waiting to get to work isn't cool fun or special.

the perks are going quick. so is the pay. the legacy carriers will as by proof of delta's new plan and us air's mostly focus on international flying. that's bigger planes , fewer pilots to fly them and the scraps, yes the scraps go to regional making 30 to 50 grand and the LCC.

the job is becoming no more significant than that of a city ot tour bus driver.


it's a shame too!

Well sorry to rain on your parade but it was your choice to commute. You can't blame the airline if you spend your days off travelling to and from work. It is quite easy to have a full 16-18 days off and even more if you bid trips that start in the afternoon and end in the morning. I'm sorry if your company closed a base and you were displaced but even then was still up to you whether you wanted to commute or just move to your new base. You get no sympathy here.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Well sorry to rain on your parade but it was your choice to commute. You can't blame the airline if you spend your days off travelling to and from work. It is quite easy to have a full 16-18 days off and even more if you bid trips that start in the afternoon and end in the morning. I'm sorry if your company closed a base and you were displaced but even then was still up to you whether you wanted to commute or just move to your new base. You get no sympathy here.

Dirk...c'mon man...you know better. It's a lot more complex than all that. It isn't all that easy to just pick up and move to your new base just because of some airline deal that your company has little or no control over. Especially if it's clear across the country and you have to uproot your whole life to get involved in another situation that could easily change and uproot you again. Real estate commissions alone for ordinary homes in Boulder CO and Washington DC (courtesy UAL/AWAC) will eat up 30K plus moving expenses will trash your paycheck for a whole year. I know.....if you don't like it move on. That's the plan.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Dirk...c'mon man...you know better. It's a lot more complex than all that. It isn't all that easy to just pick up and move to your new base just because of some airline deal that your company has little or no control over. Especially if it's clear across the country and you have to uproot your whole life to get involved in another situation that could easily change and uproot you again. Real estate commissions alone for ordinary homes in Boulder CO and Washington DC (courtesy UAL/AWAC) will eat up 30K plus moving expenses will trash your paycheck for a whole year. I know.....if you don't like it move on. That's the plan.

I empathise with your situation. I know it's difficult but I'd hate to deter someone new to the industry if they're willing to move to their future domicile. As someone who has both commuted and lived in domicile, I can attest that quality of life is infinately better when you don't have to commute. I don't know if you're a captain but perhaps we'll fly together before you move on. Good luck.

 

[WhiteCloud]

I empathise with your situation. I know it's difficult but I'd hate to deter someone new to the industry if they're willing to move to their future domicile.

I wouldn't want to deter someone either. Unfortunately, this is fast becoming a career only for young people (to do for a while) or single people with a suitcase. I think most of us here have had the rugs pulled out from under us the past few years in ways we, or the companies we work for, never could have anticipated. New people entering the profession need to know that is more the norm now rather than the exception. Respectfully, CA WhiteCloud

 

[nimtz]

Would you guys STOP counting you're per diem as anywhere in the ballpark of income. That has got to be one of the stupidest things regional pilots do. That money is to cover you're expenses on the road period. Yeah you can pocket a couple bucks a day by eating fast food, which explains why some many of us are fat @sses. Try overnighting in LGA, DCA, or ORD with that kind of mentality. The minute you start counting per diem as income management has won...

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Would you guys STOP counting you're per diem as anywhere in the ballpark of income. That has got to be one of the stupidest things regional pilots do. That money is to cover you're expenses on the road period. Yeah you can pocket a couple bucks a day by eating fast food, which explains why some many of us are fat @sses. Try overnighting in LGA, DCA, or ORD with that kind of mentality. The minute you start counting per diem as income management has won...

For those of us that are not fat @sses, we're able to take our food with us and the result is that our eating costs are the same on the road as when we're at home. That being true, per diem ads up to a decent portion of the monthly pay.

 

[nimtz]

That being true, per diem ads up to a decent portion of the monthly pay.

You definetly work for Mesa...

Pathetic...