Crossing restriction question...

[Wankel7]

We were flying into CAK this morning and had a question.

ATC cleared us to cross an intersection at 11,000. About 15 miles before we crossed the intersection the re cleared us direct to a VOR near CAK. I thought that cancelled the crossing restriction. I continued the descent down to 11,000 bit it was after the previous intersection. The captain said it still applied because the intersection was on the way to the VOR.

So, whats the story on this one?

Wankel

 

[ksu_aviator]

I've never seen anything that specifically addresses this issue. My technique is to make the crossing restriction at the intersection or abeam the intersection. Mostly because I'm betting that they'll be expecting me to continue my descent. Technically the restriction may be lifted, but you can prevent confusion by continuing as you where.

 

[Hold West]

We were flying into CAK this morning and had a question.

ATC cleared us to cross an intersection at 11,000. About 15 miles before we crossed the intersection the re cleared us direct to a VOR near CAK. I thought that cancelled the crossing restriction. I continued the descent down to 11,000 bit it was after the previous intersection. The captain said it still applied because the intersection was on the way to the VOR.

So, whats the story on this one?

Wankel

I say it cancels the restriction. The clearance was to cross a given point at 11,000. If your new route no longer takes you over the fix, what should you do? It was a discretionary descent, now is it still discretionary, or not?

My technique is to restate the altitude restriction reference the navaid or fix you are now going to, or cancel it entirely. That removes all ambiguity.

If I were you, I'd request clarification if the controller doesn't give it to you.

 

[charter dog]

Hold West says correctly! He SHOULD know.

Here is an example of an ammended clearance like the one cited by the original poster. It is an excerpt from the AIM chapter 4-4-9.

g. The guiding principle is that the last ATC clearance has precedence over the previous ATC clearance. When the route or altitude in a previously issued clearance is amended, the controller will restate applicable altitude restrictions. If altitude to maintain is changed or restated, whether prior to departure or while airborne, and previously issued altitude restrictions are omitted, those altitude restrictions are canceled, including departure procedures and STAR altitude restrictions.​

3. An arriving aircraft is cleared to the destination airport via V45 Delta VOR direct; the aircraft is cleared to cross Delta VOR at 10,000 feet, and then to maintain 6,000 feet. Prior to Delta VOR, the controller issues an amended clearance as follows: "turn right heading one eight zero for vector to runway three six I-L-S approach, maintain six thousand."​

NOTE-
Because the altitude restriction "cross Delta V-O-R at 10,000 feet" was omitted from the amended clearance, it is no longer in effect.​

This situation comes up for me quite often during the LYNXX7 arrival to BUR and VNY. ZLA clears us to descend and maintain 14,000 by 10 E of PMD. Then they ship us off to Joshua app. On initial contact, Joshua clears us direct JANNY, cross pmd at or below 13,000, cross JANNY at and maintain 8,000. The 14,000 10 E of PMD is now cancelled since it was not re-stated.​

Best,​

 

[Wankel7]

Very good...thanks guys!

Wankel

 

[AC560]

The clearance was to cross a given point at 11,000. If your new route no longer takes you over the fix, what should you do?

The captain said it still applied because the intersection was on the way to the VOR.

I am misunderstanding one of the two of you (or confusing myself), but if you are crossing the intersection still on your way to the VOR wouldn't the crossing clearance still apply?

More importantly if you are saying that the crossing restriction has been canceled are you even cleared to descend? If ATC says cross XYZ at 11000 but then says cleared direct ABC (but gives no altitude) are you still to descend to 11000 and if so when do you begin that descent?

 

[Hold West]

I am misunderstanding one of the two of you (or confusing myself), but if you are crossing the intersection still on your way to the VOR wouldn't the crossing clearance still apply?

Once you are taken off a route and cleared direct a fix, even though you may be flying the exact same heading and passing over the same ground, you are no longer flying the route and all of its intersections, etc. are no longer "useable" from an ATC standpoint.

More importantly if you are saying that the crossing restriction has been canceled are you even cleared to descend? If ATC says cross XYZ at 11000 but then says cleared direct ABC (but gives no altitude) are you still to descend to 11000 and if so when do you begin that descent?

Good question, and that's why the altitude clearance needs to be restated in some fashion, either with a crossing restriction relative to the new route or just "descend and maintain" or even PD.

 

[sharpeye]

I agree, their clearance of direct to z canceled the crossing restriction y. If they restated "Cleared direct to z, cross y at xxx'" then you would still have to cross it at that altitude, but since they did not, you could descend as you wanted and not have to cross the VOR at the initially assigned altitude.

 

[Lead Sled]

The second or third rule (I don't remember now which one it was) of air traffic control states: "Do what I mean, not what I say."

Any time there is any ambiguity in your clearance all you have to do is ask. The last thing I want to have is an controller ticked off at me (or worse). That is never good.

'Sled