Cross Country Time

[Flyforfood]

I had an arguement with a friend the other day about logging cross country time. He was quite convinced (and quite arrogant) that logging of cross country could occur as long as:

A. Departed one airport with the intention of landing at another(and actually doing it).

or

B. For the purposes of seeking a rating, landed at an airport further than 50nm from the flights origin.

I ask this because I am curious about logging XC time for my ATP. I know the ATP rating requires 500 hours of XC time. Does this time not need the greater than 50nm requirement? And yes I know I could look in the FAR's, but that would probably confuse me more than it would help.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm so glad I have a personal FAQ on this one. It saves finding the 1000 other threads it's been discussed on.

It's all in 61.1(b)(3). You can follow along.

This is one of those FAA definitions that change depending on what you're using it for. The definition of cross country falls into three groups:

Group 1: General Definition: A cross country flight is one in which you land at another airport that you didn't accidentally bump into. There are no distance requirements.

Group 2: In order to "Count" for Most Certificates or Ratings: Same as the general definition, except at least one of the places where you land has to be 50+ NM from where you started the flight. This applies to the private and commercial certificates, and the instrument rating.

Group 3: In order to "Count" for ATP: Same as for Most Certificates or Ratings, except you don't have to land at the other airport.

So, they're all cross country. The problem is keeping track of them so you can total the ones that "count". Most new pilots tend to log only Group 2 since those are the ones that they will have to total up in the near future. Some set up two columns right away (Group 1 counts for 135 experience purposes). The lack of a landing in Group 3 is a well-deserved tip of the hat to military pilots who will often fly some distance without landing.

 

[bobbysamd]

ATP X-C Time

14 CFR 61.1(b)(3) sets forth the definition of cross-country time for pilot certification:

(3) Cross-country time means --

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3) (ii), (iii), (iv), and (v) of this section, time acquired during a flight --

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

(B) Conducted in an aircraft;

(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

The exceptions to that general rule are carved out as follows in 14 CFR 61.1(b)(iii)(2):

(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements . . . for a private pilot certificate, a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101(c), time acquired during a flight --

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure . . .

(emphasis added)

You have your Commercial-Instrument already and are going for your ATP, so the restrictions and exceptions set forth in 14 CFR 61.1(b)(iii)(2) do not apply. Therefore, regardless of the distance flown, any flight from Point A with a landing at Point B, counts as cross-country time for your ATP.

I would also apply Midlifeflyer's Group 3 rule to such people as CAP pilots, who might fly a distance to a grid, search it, and fly back, conduct long route searches without ever landing, etc.

 

[tk855]

Bobby,

If I understand what you are saying, I believe you are saying that in order for a XC to count towards your ATP, it can be any flight between point A and B. I disagree, look at 61.1 (b) (iv) (B), it reads that ...For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight -

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nm from original point of departure.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, in order for it to count towards an ATP rating, it has to be a flight from your original point of departure to an airport over 50 nm. I also understand it as saying you don't need to land, just complete the flight.

tk

 

[Booker]

I concur with tk855 on this one via the same reference. It needs to be to some point more than 50nm from the departure point, but the 50nm point need not be an airport, and no landing is required.

 

[Rick1128]

X-C

The regs use to require a landing at an airport more than 49nm away. It was a problem for many military pilots. Especially SAC pilots. Just imagine taking off from a SAC base flying to the edge of Russia and then flying back to your base. Flying 12 to 18 hours half way around the world and you can't log one minute of cross country time. The regs were changed to allow for that.

 

[tarp]

Actually, Bobby's rules were correct up to 8/9/1997.

Before that date and the re-write of Part 61, there was no specific definition of qualifications for an ATP and so it simply fit under the definition found in Pt.61.1(b)(3)(i) - if you notice it does not have a length requirement at all (Simply fly Pt. A to B).

In the 1997 rewrite, the specific ATP requirement Pt.61.1(b)(3)(iv) was added and created the need for 50 miles but not a landing.

All time logged before 8/9/1997 where a candidate claims that a flight from Pt. A to Pt. B is part of the ATP minimums for X-C can still qualify.

Rules change, history is important.

 

[bobbysamd]

I stand corrected . . . .

tk855's reference to 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(iv) is absolutely correct:

(iv) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight --

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

(emphasis added)

This apparently was changed several years ago. Below is the source line for this regulation:

[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61-103, 62 FR 40893, July 30, 1997]

Years ago, the distance did not matter for logging cross-country time for the ATP. Any flight from Point A to Point B after earning your Commercial counted as cross-country.

Once more, I stand corrected. Thanks, guys.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Re: I stand corrected . . . .

This apparently was changed several years ago. Below is the source line for this regulation:

Just an FYI: it's not just that reg. In 1997, Part 61 received a major overhaul.

 

[Propnose]

X/C Time -Banner Towing....

Okay - let me throw a question out there... According to Group 3, can you log x/c time for banner towing? You're up there for hours on end, passing numerous airports over 50nm from point of departure. What do you all think??