Cross-Country PIC time

[Fearless Tower]

Trying to build X-country PIC time for my instrument rating (and justify the expense of flying to my better half) so I've been looking for things like good airport restaurants and the like to fly to. In my area there are a few well recommended places that are unfortunately less than the required 50 miles for logging purposes.

My question is:
I would like to fly to an airport that is, say 47 nm (staight line dist) from my home field and be able to take cross-country credit for it. If I depart my home field and fly to an airport a little farther (say 55 miles), do a touch and go and then back-track to the intended destination, am I able to log the entire flight as cross-country, or just the first leg to the airport that is 55 miles away?

FAR 61.1 states that to log cross country time it must "include a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure."

Perhaps it is just me, but the FAR use of the word 'include' seems slightly vague as to whether or not each leg of the same flight must be greater than 50 nm.

 

[minitour]

Do the touch and go and backtrack...you're in good shape.

-mini

 

[rickair7777]

The FARs don't seem to spell this out clearly...ie at what point does one flight end and the next begin?

Point A: Home Patch
Point B: > 50 NM from A
Point C: < 50NM from A, but has a good restaruant.

A to B(T&G) to C(T&G) to A: All XC

A to B(T&G) to C(FS). Spend the night, then back to A: The A-B-C leg is XC. The C-A leg the next day is probably not.

Somewhere in between these is the dividing line, and I doubt anyone knows where it really is. General practice has always been that a T&G, fuel stop, or lunch stop does not interupt the XC, so you should be good. Just don't log anything that shows an extended stay at C followed by a return to A.

 

[charter dog]

From 61.1(b)(3)(ii)

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

I would consider that airport A is the original point of departure even if you stay the night at airport B or C! Same pilot, same plane, same trip. Just make sure that is how it is logged. A to B to C, one entry.

Best,

 

[time builder]

From 61.1(b)(3)(ii)


I would consider that airport A is the original point of departure even if you stay the night at airport B or C! Same pilot, same plane, same trip. Just make sure that is how it is logged. A to B to C, one entry.

Best,

Agreed, exept for the part about the overnight. How do you count two flights on different days as one without fudging your log book.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

You can log A (Home) to C (XC) to B (Food) to A (home) in one line and count the entire time as XC.

One way to get the time is to rent the cheapest and slowest thing at the airport and fly it at low power settings, doglegs and slow taxiing.

Just remember to learn something along the way. While heading to your destination practice some diversions. What I would do is create a simulated emergency and pick random airports to land at.

 

[avbug]

My question is:
I would like to fly to an airport that is, say 47 nm (staight line dist) from my home field and be able to take cross-country credit for it. If I depart my home field and fly to an airport a little farther (say 55 miles), do a touch and go and then back-track to the intended destination, am I able to log the entire flight as cross-country, or just the first leg to the airport that is 55 miles away?

FAR 61.1 states that to log cross country time it must "include a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure."

Perhaps it is just me, but the FAR use of the word 'include' seems slightly vague as to whether or not each leg of the same flight must be greater than 50 nm.

The regulation isn't vague about it at all. The fact that no regulation exists requiring each leg to be 50 nm or more in length means in fact that each leg does not need to be 50 nm or more in length.

How you want to define the original point of departure is up to you. If you depart X and fly to Y and then Z, and any of those points are more than 50 nm from your original point of departure, you may dawdle about, stop and have lunch at Y or Z, or even overnight at either one before heading back to X...and still use X as your original point of departure...and still count all the time as cross country.

From the former FAA "FAQ" listing maintained by John Lynch:

{Q&A-101}

QUESTION: What is the definition or an interpretation of the term “original point of departure” contained in § 61.129(b)(3)(iii).

ANSWER: There is no definition of the term “original point of departure” in Parts 1 or 61 or any other FAA publication. Each situation is unique and a definitive definition of “original point of departure” that will cover ALL circumstances and situations is not practicable AND NOT POSSIBLE.

Departure for the purpose of conducting a “round robin” cross-country flight is a normal scenario where “original point of departure” and destination are the same. See {Q&A-60} ANSWER 6: The “original point of departure” does not change with a new day or delay.

Other examples include:

1. The purpose of repositioning (emphasis: purpose of repositioning) the aircraft to another airport, to start a cross-country flight in order to meet the 250 nautical miles cross-country requirements of section 61.129(a)(4)(i).

2. A person departs the Los Angeles International Airport on day 1 for the purpose of conducting a cross-country flight to the San Jose Airport (emphasis purpose of conducting a cross-country flight to the San Jose Airport) and remains overnight. On day 2, that person departs San Jose Airport for the purpose of conducting a cross-country flight to the Lake Tahoe Airport (emphasis purpose of conducting a cross-country flight to the Lake Tahoe Airport) and remains overnight. On day 3, that person departs Lake Tahoe Airport for the purpose of conducting a cross-country flight to the Los Angeles Intl. Airport (emphasis purpose of conducting a cross-country flight to the Los Angeles Intl. Airport) for termination. Which airport is the “original point of departure?” All 3 airports would qualify as the “original point of departure.”

3. Now in a similar situation, but slightly different, a person departs the Los Angeles International Airport for the purpose of conducting a round-robin (without ever landing enroute) cross-country flight from the Los Angeles International Airport to the San Diego, CA 030? radial at 12 DME to the Yuma, AZ 350? radial at 10 DME and then returns to the Los Angeles Intl. Airport (emphasis purpose of conducting a “round-robin” cross-country flight). Which airport is the “original point of departure?” The Los Angeles International Airport is the “original point of departure”. But this cross-country flight will not qualify for you applicants in pursuit of a private pilot certificate, commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating. However, if this flight were conducted by a pilot who already holds a commercial pilot certificate, the flight is creditable for the ATP certificate cross-country requirement.
Adherence to these strict definitions of cross-country and the “original point of departure” is only necessary when the purpose is for crediting cross-country aeronautical experience for the furtherance of a pilot certificate and rating. Cross-country aeronautical experience acquired in pursuit of a private pilot certificate, commercial pilot certificate, and an instrument rating must meet the requirements of § 61.1(b)(3)(ii) or (iii) with a landing beyond 50 nautical miles for airplanes or 25 nautical miles for rotorcraft from the original point of departure. Cross-country aeronautical experience acquired in pursuit of an airline transport pilot certificate (except rotorcraft category) must meet the requirements of § 61.1(b)(3)(iv) and military pilots’ cross-country aeronautical experience is addressed in § 61.1(b)(3)(v).

If the cross-country is NOT being utilized for the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience for the furtherance of a pilot certificate, then that cross-country flight time may be logged in accordance with § 61.1(b)(3)(i).
The time logged in a flight simulator or flight training device CANNOT be credited toward meeting the cross-country aeronautical experience. § 61.1(b)(3) states in part, “time acquired during a FLIGHT. . .” and “. . . Conducted in an appropriate AIRCRAFT” Consequently, the time logged in a flight simulator or flight training device cannot be credited toward meeting the cross-country aeronautical experience.

 

[midlifeflyer]

FAR 61.1 states that to log cross country time it must "include a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure."

Perhaps it is just me, but the FAR use of the word 'include' seems slightly vague as to whether or not each leg of the same flight must be greater than 50 nm.

I don't know if it's just you. Do you have trouble with, "a deck of cards must include a Jack of Hearts." Does every card in the deck need to be a Jack of Hearts? If you're not sure, maybe it's just you. If you are sure, then it's probably just a small case of regulitis - a conditions of thinking that the words of the FAR have hidden meanings. No big deal. It's not that uncommon. Definitely not just you.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I don't know if it's just you. Do you have trouble with, "a deck of cards must include a Jack of Hearts." Does every card in the deck need to be a Jack of Hearts? If you're not sure, maybe it's just you. If you are sure, then it's probably just a small case of regulitis - a conditions of thinking that the words of the FAR have hidden meanings. No big deal. It's not that uncommon. Definitely not just you.

Yeah, I think you're right...I probably have a case of 'regulitis'. I'm a Navy guy, so I'm definitely used to a world that is much more black and white as far as rules, regualtions and restrictions. Anyway, thanks for the intepretations.