Converting Navy logbook to civilian

[Hugh Jorgan]

I'm recently retired and decided to start logging my civilian 121 time in a new civilian logbook (don't order one on E-bay, by the way, but that's another story).

The logbook I have is the Jeppeson's Professional Pilot Logbook. My dilemna: I flew P-3's so I have a lot of Aircraft Commander time that was logged while I was not in the seat. Therefore, my 1st pilot time added to my copilot time equals my Total Pilot Time, but that's about the end of anything really adding up. In my civilian logbook, there is one entry for Total Flight Duration, one for PIC and one for SIC. Are there any others out there who went this route and how did you handle changing over to a civilian format.

I was thinking of perhaps continuing to log PIC as in sole manipulator and SIC as in the seat, but not flying, just like Navy 1st pilot and copilot time, and then labelling a third column as aircraft commander. Then I thought, if I did that, why not just keep using the navy logbook. Anyway, any thoughts on this subject are appreciated.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

whoah, whoah, hold it.... hold on....

Thanks for the reply Jim, but I'm not even thinking about actually "converting" any numbers. I have already been through the application process with numerous companies and know the drill there. Perhaps I could have chosen a better word. Perhaps using the word "transitioning" to a new logbook. The fact that my Aircraft Commander time was logged for the entire flight in P-3's is creating this quandry. My problem lies in what total I put in the PIC column. If I put the number I used in my navy logbook as aircraft commander in the PIC column, then what should I use in the new SIC column? The total that I had in my Navy copilot column? If I do that, the two numbers won't add up to my total "pilot" time. I've considered taking my Navy Aircraft Commander time and entering it in the PIC column, and then subtracting that number from my total pilot time and putting the result in the SIC column so that it all adds up. Anyway, just looking to see what others have done when making the switch to a civilian logbook.
Thanks.

 

[Goose17]

another thought

Hugh,

As mentioned above, each airline tends to want the time logged differently. When you are filling out mass applications, this really SUCKS to say the least. Consider what I did: I got an electronic log book and logged all my military time in it. This really was not fun and took many, many hours to do. However, when it came time to fill out the apps, I could simply point, click and sort. It made the application process some much nicer. I did not convert anything from my military time. I simply copied it as the Air Force logged it. If the airline allowed for conversion, I used the allowed multiplier and put the adjusted figures on the app. I also added what little civilian time I had and it was a nice product when I was finished. I printed it off in traditional log book format, signed each page and also had my military total time print as a back up. I never once was question on my flight time in any interview. It was also nice to have a "clean" log book to present with no white-out or crazy comments on it.

Just a thought.

Goose17

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Thanks for the reply Goose. I've done the electronic logbook thing and it helped in the job application process. This is not about applying for a job, though. I have a new job which is why I bought a civilian logbook. Just wondering what to do about mismatching columns in the different books.

 

[Goose17]

ahhhh

I guess it depends then...

Are you going to be looking for a different job? Or is this your "retirement job"?

For me, I am working at Fed Ex and although you can never predict the future accurately, I plan to stick it out here. That being said, I don't track my time anymore. My company does, and I can download it at any time. I actually did track my time when I was first employed but not anymore. The AF tracked my time as "primary/secondary/other" and some other less important categories. As for the "other", I just deleted the column and subtracted it from my totals. As for the other two, I simply renamed "primary" to PIC and secondary to "SIC". This is simply for record keeping and not to be presented in an interview. For any interview, I would have my two log books seperate; 1 military and 1 civilian.

Just my .02 worth.

Goose17

 

[AlbieF15]

Goose,

I too am at FedEx and hope I NEVER have to apply anywhere else.

However, here are 2 pearls I've taken from these many logbook threads on flightinfo:

First...especially you guys just starting the military...LOG YOUR D--N time! In addition to the "ease" of putting together info for your next career, be it 19 years or 7 years down the road, its nice to have your own data to back up the military flight records...which actually do end up messed up at times. I actually used my logbook to correct a few missing entries and make some changes on my records back in 01 before I separated started interviewing. Also...I have completely enjoyed reviewing old entries....it not only helped for my "tell me about a time" interview questions, it was just plane fun to look back on some neat missions with some good buddies. Although a bit somber, I recently went through my log and found a bunch of flights I had with a buddy killed in England in an F15 crash Mar 01....and I was surprised at how many flights we actually had together.

Second...I urge you to reconsider not keeping a log. I have helped a few US Air Captains and FOs prep for their JetBlue interviews, and while they probably didn't "need" a logbook anymore most said they wished they'd kept them for the reasons above I alluded to. I figure keeping mine up to date and accurate will make it an good heirloom for my kids one day, and maybe if Murphy's law holds out if I keep it neat and updated I won't NEED it for another job.

The logbook is more than your flight time for FAA currencies and job applications--its your professional history and a great snapshot of your life. I still get a kick of looking down the AC type column and seeing a Navion, an F15, and a 727 all on the same page. I'll bet your kids will enjoy rifling through your log one day and reading about "TSMs over Kansas" or "Captain was *&*#" etc.

I am just looking foward to putting some hours in the SIC turbine column one day. Lots of mil PIC and "other" FE time...but I look forward to learning the co-pilot game. Guess us bottom feeders at FDX may have to wait a bit longer...

Fly safe!

 

[Goose17]

Albie

I know you are at Fed Ex too, we have spoken on the phone together, but I guess you have forgotten.

As for keeping a log. I think it is great to track your time for the excellent memories, but to track it day-to-day I personnaly think is a waste of time. I periodically download the company tracked flight spreadsheet and can re-create a log book at any given moment. After all, if the company screwed up your time, it would be reflected in your paycheck. I think you would notice.

If Fed Ex were to furlough us all tomorrow (god forbid), I would be the first to download my latest hours and have a crisp new log book a moment later.

Goose17

 

[P3tarbaby]

Here's what I have done...

Hugh,

I have done what you suggested in your earlier reply. I take my AC time and log it as PIC, then subtract that from my Total Time to get SIC. I checked with a bunch of guys around the squadron and this seemed to be the consensus as the easiest and most accurate way to portray your time. I have been through 8 interviews and have never been questioned about figuring my flight time this way. I also track my time on an Excel spreadsheet so it is easy to figure in Military conversion factors for any of the time and it allowed me to break it down into catagories common for the application process like ME/SE time and sim time and time by aircraft category. Hope this helpls.

P3TB

 

[Mud Eagle]

Okay, Albie has just completely tumbled my gyros on this logbook issue.

A while back, I got the exact opposite advice from a couple military guys -- keep a logbook for your own fun, but don't use it when you're applying to the airlines later on in life. The concern is that any 0.1 discrepancy between your log and the AFORMS product could be cause for concern.

So, I *stopped* logging my military time over a year ago.

Now, I'm hearing that I *should* be logging my time on my own?!

Crap!! I'm way behind if I wanna start filling in all those sorties.

Anyone else wanna weigh in on this one? Keep a logbook, or don't (military time, that is).

 

[Goose17]

while in the military...

Hey Mud Eagle,

You SHOULD keep a log while in the military for 2 reasons. First off, the military records keeping is not always accurate and I have known quite a few dudes who have had to go back and add a BUNCH of missing flights. If you have a record that you can compare to the military's then you can catch any discrepancies. Secondly, it really helps when it comes time to switch into civilian flying. Not only will it be a HUGE help when filling out everyones application that requires your time to be broken down differently, but it also will give you a product to take to some of the interviews. Each airline is different. Some ONLY want your military product (total/summary), others want a log book. I always had both for all interviews and never had a problem. Don't think all is lost... you can simply get a copy of your military records and recreate/create a personal log book at any time. You are very correct, however, when you say to be careful on discrepancies. Make DARN sure that your total matches the military total otherwise you will have some splain'n to do Lucy!

Goose17

 

[Tweetdrvr]

Log that mil time

Mud Eagle,

I agree with Goose and Albie. AFORMS will eventually screw up and you'll lose if you don't have something to back it up. I know one very anal person who keeps a copy of every 781.

There will be differences in your book just on the way AF does things vice what can be done by the FAA way. For example, I rarely fly CT with anyone of higher rank than myself, so in my log book that all goes in as PIC, but on the 781 we usually split it as half Instructor and half Primary between the two individuals. When I do fly with someone who outranks me, or when I get a checkride from an FE, I put that down as dual received in my book, but not PIC, and certainly not SIC because the mighty Tweet is only certified as single pilot. I only claim Instructor time in my logbook when I do student sorties, and on the occasion where I fly CT with someone who is completely non-current. My night time is quite different in my log book due to the way the AF logs night time. On the 781 there is a column for Primary Night, but not Secondary Night. In big plane world, an AC and Co will split the Primary/Secondary, but at night only your Primary Night gets logged, so you lose half your night time if you let only the AF keep track of it. The night issue doesn't matter much for you pointy nose airplane drivers since you are the only pilot on board your craft.

For post military flying be it after your commitment or retirement, your log can be like a diary of those all important stories those interviewers tend to ask for when they say "tell me about a time when..."