I'm currently flying charter but want to make a military career and finish out my remaining active time. i don't meet vision req's for pilot but do for NFO or Nav. I would just like to know if any current or prior navs enjoyed their positions and would it be a wise move for myself. Is their any chance for stick time like in the S-3 or EA6B? Thank you for your suggestions
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Considering NFO or Navigator?
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NFO
I'm a S-3 NFO. While I've had a total blast flying off the carrier, if your ultimate goal is to be a pro pilot, it's not the path to take. Ask a Naval Aviator what NFO stands for (No Future Outside) - ha, ha. Yes, you get a lot of stick time in the Hoover, but whther or not you can log it for the civilian world is debateable. The FAA says that if you have your civ mulit ratings you can log PIC (it's true - it's on some FAA Part 61 FAQ site). I know for a fact that the majors will not count any of your NFO time, but the regionals are another story.
Now, if you are looking for a fun way to serve, NFO isn't such a bad deal. S-3's probably won't be an option, their retirement is just around the corner. You would probably have to decide between P-3, EA-6B, F/A-18F, and E-2C.
I've heard that Navs are pooped on in the AF, not true on the Navy side (or not as much at least).
Have you looked at having your vision corrected? Make sure you investigate that option - PRK is now legal for Navy guys. I had it done last year and I love it (from 20/buzziliion to 20/15) - but now I'm too senior to transition to pilot. Speaking of pilot trany - don't count on it, they are few and far between.
Good luck!
I'm a S-3 NFO. While I've had a total blast flying off the carrier, if your ultimate goal is to be a pro pilot, it's not the path to take. Ask a Naval Aviator what NFO stands for (No Future Outside) - ha, ha. Yes, you get a lot of stick time in the Hoover, but whther or not you can log it for the civilian world is debateable. The FAA says that if you have your civ mulit ratings you can log PIC (it's true - it's on some FAA Part 61 FAQ site). I know for a fact that the majors will not count any of your NFO time, but the regionals are another story.
Now, if you are looking for a fun way to serve, NFO isn't such a bad deal. S-3's probably won't be an option, their retirement is just around the corner. You would probably have to decide between P-3, EA-6B, F/A-18F, and E-2C.
I've heard that Navs are pooped on in the AF, not true on the Navy side (or not as much at least).
Have you looked at having your vision corrected? Make sure you investigate that option - PRK is now legal for Navy guys. I had it done last year and I love it (from 20/buzziliion to 20/15) - but now I'm too senior to transition to pilot. Speaking of pilot trany - don't count on it, they are few and far between.
Good luck!
Bustamove
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NFO stuff
I can speak to the NFO side of the house. You won't get stick time in anything but the S-3, and I'm not sure how much you'll get there. I did the A-6 and F-14 thing and, while there was no stick time available the aircraft and missions were great.
I do know of a couple of guys who went into S-3s with their multi ratings and logged SIC or UI time while they were in the right seat. Don' t know how all that works but maybe an S-3 guy will read this and help you out.
One thing to consider when looking at NFO vs. USAF Nav. NFOs are more 'equal' in the cockpits and squadrons. We're eligible to be mission commanders, to command squadrons, airwings, carriers and the like. It's a cultural thing to consider along with everything else that goes into the decision. USAFers feel free to correct me if this has changed.
Feel free to pm me if you have specific questions.
I can speak to the NFO side of the house. You won't get stick time in anything but the S-3, and I'm not sure how much you'll get there. I did the A-6 and F-14 thing and, while there was no stick time available the aircraft and missions were great.
I do know of a couple of guys who went into S-3s with their multi ratings and logged SIC or UI time while they were in the right seat. Don' t know how all that works but maybe an S-3 guy will read this and help you out.
One thing to consider when looking at NFO vs. USAF Nav. NFOs are more 'equal' in the cockpits and squadrons. We're eligible to be mission commanders, to command squadrons, airwings, carriers and the like. It's a cultural thing to consider along with everything else that goes into the decision. USAFers feel free to correct me if this has changed.
Feel free to pm me if you have specific questions.
Rush Limbaugh
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Bustamove
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Navy back seat sticks
Rush is right. Only Navy back seats with sticks are the F/A-18D and a few adversary aircraft. We don't have many of those and you wouldn't want to plan a career around maybe getting one tour in one of those. The Marines have the D model, though, and I suppose their WSO logging potential would be the same as an Strike Eagle.
Rush is right. Only Navy back seats with sticks are the F/A-18D and a few adversary aircraft. We don't have many of those and you wouldn't want to plan a career around maybe getting one tour in one of those. The Marines have the D model, though, and I suppose their WSO logging potential would be the same as an Strike Eagle.
jarhead_av8r
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T1bubba
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Good info so far. The S-3 and the F-15E are the only operational aircraft where the nav has access to flight controls. The instructor nav's in the T-1 and T-39 in Pensacola also get to fly occasionally. On their proficiency flights they sit in the right seat (they usually sit in the jump seat) and get some stick time if they want it. They also usually do a coupled or flight director ILS. You could always tell the S-3 and F-15E folks, the ones I flew with were pretty good sticks.
Since you asked about stick time, I'm assuming you want to actually fly some. If so look into PRK and join up as a pilot. Many nav jobs don't actually have much to do with the flying. You've got to ask yourself if you'd be happy flying around in the back of a tube staring at a radar screen for hours without a window to look out. Not everyone gets to fly fighters.
That said, if you want to be an officer and think being around aviation would be a fun way to spend a career, go for it. I know tons of NFO's/Nav's, some hated it and some loved it. I think the ones that enjoyed it were more focused on the non-flying aspects of the job. If you do want to join as a nav, the Navy is the way to go. Nav's in the Air Force tend to be looked at as second class citizens in many ways, the Navy is much better about giving NFO's an equal chance at a good career.
Femur, did the Navy start the NFO-to-pilot transition program again? I know they killed it around 1996 after the F-14 crash in Nashville. It was too bad they ended it, the only problem with the program was that the NFO's didn't have to earn their way back into the aircraft they came from. They were guaranteed to go back to their former aircraft, and some were put into aircraft that were more than they could handle.
T1bubba
Since you asked about stick time, I'm assuming you want to actually fly some. If so look into PRK and join up as a pilot. Many nav jobs don't actually have much to do with the flying. You've got to ask yourself if you'd be happy flying around in the back of a tube staring at a radar screen for hours without a window to look out. Not everyone gets to fly fighters.
That said, if you want to be an officer and think being around aviation would be a fun way to spend a career, go for it. I know tons of NFO's/Nav's, some hated it and some loved it. I think the ones that enjoyed it were more focused on the non-flying aspects of the job. If you do want to join as a nav, the Navy is the way to go. Nav's in the Air Force tend to be looked at as second class citizens in many ways, the Navy is much better about giving NFO's an equal chance at a good career.
Femur, did the Navy start the NFO-to-pilot transition program again? I know they killed it around 1996 after the F-14 crash in Nashville. It was too bad they ended it, the only problem with the program was that the NFO's didn't have to earn their way back into the aircraft they came from. They were guaranteed to go back to their former aircraft, and some were put into aircraft that were more than they could handle.
T1bubba
Yes the NFO-Pilot transition is alive again. It got some very bad press (unwarranted in my opinion) after Nashville and some other incidents. While the numbers of transitions aren't huge, it does happen and guys who work really hard at it at lest have a decent shot.
I can second the other posts here about how NFOs get treated in the Navy. Especially in the TACAIR community, they are brothers in arms and there is very little of the second class citizen status you may see in other services. We have multiple NFOs in very senior positions such as CAG, CO of carriers, etc. I really admire the guys... It takes a special person to sit by and watch some knucklehead hurl the airplane (with you in it!) at the back of the ship at night. I always wondered what you guys talked about on downwind after a scary pass!!
NAVHNT
I can second the other posts here about how NFOs get treated in the Navy. Especially in the TACAIR community, they are brothers in arms and there is very little of the second class citizen status you may see in other services. We have multiple NFOs in very senior positions such as CAG, CO of carriers, etc. I really admire the guys... It takes a special person to sit by and watch some knucklehead hurl the airplane (with you in it!) at the back of the ship at night. I always wondered what you guys talked about on downwind after a scary pass!!
NAVHNT
NFO
The first NFO to pilot trany board was held last year, and they had a ton of people apply. Something like 35 or so were accepted. Navhnt was right, they killed the program after Nashville - a knee-jerk reaction to the ridiculous policy of having the transitioned NFO (or TransfestFO as my training command bubbas call 'em) return to his original community regardless of his flight school performance. That's been fixed - now a trany selects jets, props, or helos just like everyone else. He also incurs a brand new eight year commitment w/o aviator bonus eligibility (yikes). The regs are also tight as to how much time you already have in (I think you must be commisioned less than 5 years).
I have looked at some airline apps (yeah, I know, I'm dreaming) and I'm pretty sure Southwest had a blurb that basically says if you are a NFO/NAV, don't even bother trying to count flight time. But Jim was right on - if you can justify it in the FARS (and you can for S-3 types), you can log it.
As for how much stick time you actually get - depends on the pilot you're crewed with, and your skills (or lack there of). Since most of the time spent in the S-3 is not flown in the most tactically "threatening" environment, there is an opportunity for flying the whole mission (except for the takeoff and landing when on deployment - for obvious reasons).
Navhnt is right, it does take a special person to sit there and let someone try and kill him. I noticed that the more experience I got, the scarier it became. NO MAS!
The first NFO to pilot trany board was held last year, and they had a ton of people apply. Something like 35 or so were accepted. Navhnt was right, they killed the program after Nashville - a knee-jerk reaction to the ridiculous policy of having the transitioned NFO (or TransfestFO as my training command bubbas call 'em) return to his original community regardless of his flight school performance. That's been fixed - now a trany selects jets, props, or helos just like everyone else. He also incurs a brand new eight year commitment w/o aviator bonus eligibility (yikes). The regs are also tight as to how much time you already have in (I think you must be commisioned less than 5 years).
I have looked at some airline apps (yeah, I know, I'm dreaming) and I'm pretty sure Southwest had a blurb that basically says if you are a NFO/NAV, don't even bother trying to count flight time. But Jim was right on - if you can justify it in the FARS (and you can for S-3 types), you can log it.
As for how much stick time you actually get - depends on the pilot you're crewed with, and your skills (or lack there of). Since most of the time spent in the S-3 is not flown in the most tactically "threatening" environment, there is an opportunity for flying the whole mission (except for the takeoff and landing when on deployment - for obvious reasons).
Navhnt is right, it does take a special person to sit there and let someone try and kill him. I noticed that the more experience I got, the scarier it became. NO MAS!
bssthound
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One avenue I've not seen discussed here is the Air National Guard/Air Force Reserve. You can fly for the military and civilian.
Jim's made an allusion to an earlier thread. I had stated earlier that my WSO/Nav background had helped immensely in my interview at ASA. My interviewer understood that I had an additional 3000+ hours of situational awareness.
A huge advantage to the Air Guard and AF Reserve is that almost all of the pilots are major airline pilots. In my unit we have guys who fly for everyone but JetBlue. Sure, most of the passenger carriers aren't hiring right now but that won't last forever.
Another advantage is you'll make good money and see a lot of the world. You're also building a retirement. I've had a great time and have never heard anyone say he or she regrets it. It really is a great part-time job.
The only aircraft I'm aware of with navs in the Guard/Reserve is the C-130. I don't know about the Navy Reserve. I'm hoping the good folks on this board will come up with a more thorough list of aircraft.
Jim's made an allusion to an earlier thread. I had stated earlier that my WSO/Nav background had helped immensely in my interview at ASA. My interviewer understood that I had an additional 3000+ hours of situational awareness.
A huge advantage to the Air Guard and AF Reserve is that almost all of the pilots are major airline pilots. In my unit we have guys who fly for everyone but JetBlue. Sure, most of the passenger carriers aren't hiring right now but that won't last forever.
Another advantage is you'll make good money and see a lot of the world. You're also building a retirement. I've had a great time and have never heard anyone say he or she regrets it. It really is a great part-time job.
The only aircraft I'm aware of with navs in the Guard/Reserve is the C-130. I don't know about the Navy Reserve. I'm hoping the good folks on this board will come up with a more thorough list of aircraft.
I had a great time during my short enlistment and would not have a problem doing another 16 yrs as an NFO. I think if I get some more civilian flight time within a year or less and instruct while i'm in(CFI if possible), I'll have the airlines to look forward to after retirement. To be honest I'm not in it for the money but more for the adventure and to say I did it. Thanks NFO's/Nav's for your info. It sounds like I may want to stay Navy.
JimNtexas
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There is no question that NFOs are higher in the Navy's peaking order than USAF Navs are in the Air Force. That's not to say that USAF Nav can't have a good career and get promoted, but its something to consider.
In the Air Force a nav with a commerical FAA ticket can be a drone pilot. The drone guys are getting T-3s for proficency training, I wonder if they'll let their Navs fly them?
The Guard is an excellent option for both pilots and navs. I talked to a Guard or Reserve (I forget which) WC-130 nav at Oshkosh, he seemed like a really happy camper. I also met a former A-6 NFO who had an ATP and was an FAA designated examiner.
The upside to the USAF if you aren't close to the age limit is that that the USAF sends plenty of navs back to UPT, more so than the Navy I think. But since you are prior service I suspect you may be too old for that option.
If you think you can stand the life of a squid, then NFO is a good way to go if you can't pass the pilot eye test.
In the Air Force a nav with a commerical FAA ticket can be a drone pilot. The drone guys are getting T-3s for proficency training, I wonder if they'll let their Navs fly them?
The Guard is an excellent option for both pilots and navs. I talked to a Guard or Reserve (I forget which) WC-130 nav at Oshkosh, he seemed like a really happy camper. I also met a former A-6 NFO who had an ATP and was an FAA designated examiner.
The upside to the USAF if you aren't close to the age limit is that that the USAF sends plenty of navs back to UPT, more so than the Navy I think. But since you are prior service I suspect you may be too old for that option.
If you think you can stand the life of a squid, then NFO is a good way to go if you can't pass the pilot eye test.
Rush Limbaugh
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Another thing to consider is that to the best of my knowledge (which isn't much, believe me) USAF navs that go to UPT are eligible for the bonus. As someone mentioned earlier, they aren't eligible in the Navy. The bad part is that the committment is now 10 years or something ridiculous like that.
Along the same lines, I wonder if I can count my stinkbug time since stinkbug pilots are not much more than WSO's with landing currency.
Along the same lines, I wonder if I can count my stinkbug time since stinkbug pilots are not much more than WSO's with landing currency.
I don't think the bonus thing is quite accurate. To the best of my knowledge, NFO-Pilot transition is eligible for the bonus. A guy in my squadron was an A-6 BN who transitioned to pilot and he got a bonus. I think the tricky part is that as a transition guy, they are pretty senior and might not meet all the gates/requirements to be eligible. Additionally, part of the Navy bonus plan is structured to reward people for going back to sea-duty. Most of those bonus plans don't care if you are an NFO or pilot.
NAVHNT
NAVHNT
NavyGuy
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To piggyback on what navhnt wrote. As an NFO you ARE eligible for a bonus unlike your AF NAV/WSO bretheren. Just one more way you're treated a little better in the Navy. There are some great NFO TACAIR(F-14, F-18F, S-3, EA-6B) opportunities in the Navy if you're interested in being tip-of-the spear. There are also awesome jobs to be had in the E-2 and P-3 communities if you don't mind riding in a tube. However if you want to drive instead of hold the map I would look into the Guard or AF reserves for a pilot gig( they will waiver on occasion for less than stellar vision). Whatever you decide just amke sure you are well informed before signing on the dotted line. Good luck.
P.S. NAVHNT, How cool was it to fly the mighty SLUF!?!
P.S. NAVHNT, How cool was it to fly the mighty SLUF!?!
The A-7 was a great airplane for its time. I flew the A-7E which actually had some neat gadgets. It had a great Heads Up Display and some computerized bombing modes that made it a very accurate visual bomber. It was pretty good behind the ship as lond as you stayed ahead of it. It could get pretty ugly trying to dig out of the hole if you got low&slow. The best part was the community as a whole, we had great spirit and esprit. Our motto was "No slack in Light Attack."
Having said that, there isn't much the A-7 did that the Hornet doesn't do a lot better. I count myself very lucky to have flown both.
navhnt
Having said that, there isn't much the A-7 did that the Hornet doesn't do a lot better. I count myself very lucky to have flown both.
navhnt
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