Complex PIC

[Medicryan]

Hey, quick question. When you are getting your training in a complex airplane before you endorsement is it PIC time? I cannot find anything in the FARs.

Thanks

 

[gear goes down]

Well, are you qualified to act as PIC with out the endorsement? I don’t think so. However, you would be the sole manipulator of the flight controls, so if you use that, yes. But, the question still is, are you qualified to act as PIC without the complex endorsement?

 

[cobraman]

Yes you can log it... Remember, "Cat, Class, and type if required"???
It doesn't say any exceptions about complex, high performance ect.
Look up the definition of PIC in the aim.

If he is with his instructor, he is still the sole manipulator right? I'd log the time.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Absolutely you can log PIC. You can log PIC when you are doing instrument training without an instrument rating, so you can definitely log PIC when doing complex training. In fact both you and your instructor should be logging PIC. You are the sole manipulator of the controls and he is the final authority of the flight. That is the difference between being able to log PIC and act as PIC.

 

[Medicryan]

Great, thanks for all the replies.

 

[CJCCapt]

Well, are you qualified to act as PIC with out the endorsement? I don’t think so. However, you would be the sole manipulator of the flight controls, so if you use that, yes. But, the question still is, are you qualified to act as PIC without the complex endorsement?

There are two definitions of PIC in FAA Regs. One for logging flight time and one for final authority.

Part 61 allows you to log time as PIC when you are "...the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated; or you are the sole occupant of the aircraft;..." If you're flying a complex single engine aircraft and hold a private certificate, single engine land class, you may log that time as PIC in your log book. You would also log it as "dual received" and "total duration of flight".

However, you may not act as PIC as in defined in Part 1.1 - "...final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight..." until you are endorsed by your CFI. Two completely different things.

 

[Kream926]

heres another PIC Q thats been brought up at work....

instrument training in IMC, can that still be logged to the student as PIC? he doesnt have the rating to operate in those conditions.

 

[EngineOut]

heres another PIC Q thats been brought up at work....

instrument training in IMC, can that still be logged to the student as PIC? he doesnt have the rating to operate in those conditions.

Log it under the "sole manipulator" stipulation...however, the student cannot put their name on the flight plan until they are rated.

 

[midlifeflyer]

he doesn't have the rating to operate in those conditions.

No, but he =does= have the rating to operate that =aircraft=. As EngineOut said, that and being sole manipulator is all that's required to put the time in the PIC column for the purpose of FAA certificates, ratings and currency under FAR 61.51(e).