Complex Aircraft

[freightdoggie]

This is probably a dumb question, and I know what the answer is, but just to be sure:

Is a Cessna Caravan a complex aircraft as far as logging time goes.
I believe it is and my source is FAR 61.129 (a) (ii)

Anyone agree or disagree?
Thanks

Happy Flying

 

[cessna_driver2]

I would assume (we know what happens then) that it would be High performance. It most definately has greater than 200 hp. But the caravans don't have retracting gear.

I guess the turbine would be complex enough w/ out adding the gear on top of everything else.

Any other ideas?

 

[wingnutt]

what part of a Caravan says to you "i have retractable landing gear"

 

[HAZ-MAT]

The gear retracts in my mind.. especially if you pretend if there is a gear knob on the instrument panel, and you grab it and put the gear up and down....

 

[wingnutt]

lol...

...isnt that right next to the "co-pilot ejection seat" switch???

 

[HAZ-MAT]

hehe, yep, you have that switch, then to the right of that is the button to silence the overspeed, because you know what? you hear that an awful lot in cruise

 

[bigD]

HAZ-MAT - are you currently flying the Caravan? I'll buy you one of those stupid retractable landing gear training devices that Sporty's sells if you stick it on the panel and report back about what the other pilots say about it.

 

[HAZ-MAT]

Big-D, okay sounds like a plan, Its a good thing its just me up there, because if i had someone else see me use the gear lever... they'd prolly wonder howcome they didnt get that memo! yea I fly the Van. I like it, I'm warm in the winter, and cool in the summer.

 

[bigD]

Heh heh - I've seen a private pilot use one of those things on a Warrior to "practice for when he works on his commercial", which I thought was pretty dorky. But I think seeing a Caravan pilot with one would be hilarious!

 

[freightdoggie]

So Basically landing gear is the determining factor in complex, Turbine engine has nothing to do with it right?

Thanks for the help guys

 

[TXCAP4228]

Complex = Rectractable landing gear, flaps, adjustable pitch propeller.

A Caravan on floats DOES has retractable langing gear, but a conventioanl caravan does not.

Still, it is a turbine.

 

[canadflyau]

For a commercial lic. 10 hours of training in a complex airplane "that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, OR is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hrs of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller" [ref:61.128(a)(ii)] "Complex" flight time required for obtaing single-engine COMM lic

I have heard the grammatics of that OR debated before. I have heard it said that the comma is the culprit for the grey area.

You decide if it reads like:
-a complex A/C is a plane with retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller
OR
-a complex A/C is a plane with a Turbine Engine
OR
-a complex A/C is a seaplane with flaps and a controllable pitch propeller

The other way of reading it is:
-a complex A/C is a plane with retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller
OR
-a complex A/C is a plane with retractable landing gear, flaps, and a turbine engine

 

[canadflyau]

Anyone know of some planes that have a fixed pitch prop driven by a tubine engine?

 

[Khirsah]

it could also be read as:

-- 10 hours in a complex airplane (etc, etc)
or
-- 10 hours in a turbine airplane.

That's the way I've always read it. Don't know whether that makes a turbine airplane complex by definition or whether it allows commercial training in a non-complex aircraf so long as it is turbine powered.

One could conceivably do their comm ASEL in a Caravan and their comm AMEL in a DHC-6 and never touch a gear handle. Interesting idea. Anyone got a couple million I could borrow so I can buy both aircraft and try it out?

 

[canadflyau]

Khirsah, you are 100% correct.

I just looked at 61.31(e), very clear about what Complex time is.

The exception in 61.128 is just that 10 hrs turbine time can count toward the 10 hrs of Complex for the Comm rating.

 

[jea]

the commercial pts says (for the purpose of the checkride) that " A complex airplane is one having retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable prop OR TURBINE POWERED." key word is OR- a caravan is considered complex for the checkride. High performance for logging... Khirsah is on top of it. We covered this today in dpe initial standardization in okc.

 

[wingnutt]

well thats all fine for the purposes of gaining a rating but thats not the original question...

"Is a Cessna Caravan a complex aircraft as far as logging time goes"

...then again, its all kinda moot, who the heck logs 'complex" time anyways

 

[Dragonbravo]

But what if is a Caravan on floats? It has gear then.

 

[sbav8r]

The exception in 61.128 is just that 10 hrs turbine time can count toward the 10 hrs of Complex for the Comm rating.

The way I understand this is that a turbine aircraft such as a turbo fan may be used instead of the variable pitch propeller, but that doesn't affect the requirement for retractable landing gear and flaps.

Then again, what the hell do I know with 300 hours?

I suppose I should figure it out for the CFI so I am interested to see what the census is.