Comair Concessions

[VABB]

Is this true? Heard from a friend of mine in the aviation consulting business that Delta is really putting the heat on to cut costs. His sources have been telling him that the next big thing may be concessions at Comair. He said a sale of them and possibly ASA could be a real possibility if Delta needs some serious cash soon. Just for the record, my friend's consulting business analyzes and provides data to a lot of people including airline exec's and Wall Street investors.

Salaries at this place are already low enough, how much lower can Comair expect people to work for. I know PFT was the big thing years ago, so what's next-PFS-Pay-For-Seniority?

 

[SkylerS]

VABB,

nothing from management, yet. It would be a mistake since it would cost them more in the long run due to low morale. I think the only thing this group would do is extend the contract in hopes that Mesa and Chautauqua grow a pair and get Comair+ the next time around. I say this because the excuse apparently was they had to protect themselves with scope. Well, if they have it then I expect them to fight hard. But unfortunately, I'm not very hopeful. I think these guys would sell their grandmother for more jets. I would love to be proven wrong.

I would think they would have the leverage with a significant amount of pilots. But it's totally up to the pilots. The position we are all in is because of the pilots, not management, not 9/11, not the economy.

--Sky

 

[MedFlyer]

Is this true? Heard from a friend of mine in the aviation consulting business that Delta is really putting the heat on to cut costs. His sources have been telling him that the next big thing may be concessions at Comair. He said a sale of them and possibly ASA could be a real possibility if Delta needs some serious cash soon. Just for the record, my friend's consulting business analyzes and provides data to a lot of people including airline exec's and Wall Street investors.

Salaries at this place are already low enough, how much lower can Comair expect people to work for. I know PFT was the big thing years ago, so what's next-PFS-Pay-For-Seniority?

In the short term (next two years), I don't see any concessions at Comair. I think most at Comair would rather take the larger paycheck then go after mythical growth. Further down the road, you might see some small concessions, but I wouldn't count on much.

As for a spin-off of Comair, it'll probably happen. DL is burning through cash quickly and will need every dime they can get. However, I don't think DL will get much for Comair....low growth prospects and a heavy reliance on 50 seaters won't be all that appealing to investors.

 

[chperplt]

Well, If Delta hoped we were going to give anything back, GG fuked himself a few weeks ago. He told the world we (Comair) had the lowest overall cost of any DCI carrier.

If that's the case, he reaffirms that pilot cost is not pivotal and give backs are not required.

I'm sure cutbacks are needed, but those cutbacks can come in the way of smarter spending and executive level salaries.

low growth prospects and a heavy reliance on 50 seaters won't be all that appealing to investors.

Very true.. That's why the only way a spinoff would work would be to guarantee expansion. If a spinoff did happen, look for Comair to replace 50s with 70s and add to the fleet.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Why do you guys keep talking Delta about selling ASA, or Comair? According to financial data, the Comair and ASA stock is pledged to General Electric.

It would be hard for Delta to sell something with a lien on it - it no longer belongs to Delta.

 

[MedFlyer]

Why do you guys keep talking Delta about selling ASA, or Comair? According to financial data, the Comair and ASA stock is pledged to General Electric.

It would be hard for Delta to sell something with a lien on it - it no longer belongs to Delta.

How can Comair/ASA stock be pledged to GE when there is no ASA/Comair stock to pledge? Unless DL has already promised GE shares in the future (should Comair/ASA be sold), then it would be a different story.

Even if that's the case, DL could still spin off Comair/ASA. GE would automatically own part of the company and the rest of the proceeds could go to DL (I can't imagine GE would hold 100% of the shares).

 

[TWA Dude]

It would be a mistake since it would cost them more in the long run due to low morale.

Thanks for the chuckle, I'm awake now.

 

[sweptback]

Even if that's the case, DL could still spin off Comair/ASA. GE would automatically own part of the company and the rest of the proceeds could go to DL (I can't imagine GE would hold 100% of the shares).

Why would an engine manufacturer want to own an airline? Would this even be legal by anti-trust laws?

 

[SkylerS]

Thanks for the chuckle, I'm awake now.

What? You don't think low morale leads to higher costs? If not, you have a lot to learn.

--Sky

 

[Paul R. Smith]

.

pilot cost is not pivotal and give backs are not required.

QUOTE]

It never really was.

 

[Marko Ramius]

Learning Curve

What? You don't think low morale leads to higher costs? If not, you have a lot to learn.

--Sky

Hopefully it won't occur in relation to the issue of concessions at Comair, but if you think that the vast majority of airline managements are the slightest bit concerned about the above quote, than you have alot to learn.

 

[jarhead]

Why would an engine manufacturer want to own an airline? Would this even be legal by anti-trust laws?

Why would Mike Ilitch, owner of Dominos Pizza, purchase the Detroit Red Wings hockey team? One thing has nothing to do with the other. General Electric makes stuff from light bulbs to dishwashers and refrigerators. They even own the NBC Television network. Their is no anti trust issue at all here. G.E. has not consulted with me yet, so I can't say specifically why they would guarantee loans to Delta, other than their reason for doing so being percieved by G.E. managers to be an investment opportunity, or perhaps protection of revenue they now enjoy from selling jet engines they make for various aircraft.

 

[sweptback]

Why would Mike Ilitch, owner of Dominos Pizza, purchase the Detroit Red Wings hockey team? One thing has nothing to do with the other. General Electric makes stuff from light bulbs to dishwashers and refrigerators. They even own the NBC Television network. Their is no anti trust issue at all here. G.E. has not consulted with me yet, so I can't say specifically why they would guarantee loans to Delta, other than their reason for doing so being percieved by G.E. managers to be an investment opportunity, or perhaps protection of revenue they now enjoy from selling jet engines they make for various aircraft.

Remember when United was owned by Boeing? That didn't fly.

Remember when AA, DL, and CO all had exclusive purchasing agreements with Boeing? Didn't work either.

Maybe you meant to say GECAS. That's a different story as they are a finance firm, and financing firms commonly take a stake in airlines to do their job.

But somehow I don't think the largest manufacturer of aircraft engines owning a controlling stake in an airline would not work too well.

 

[SkylerS]

I don't recall saying anything about management caring, wiseguy. I'm stating it as a fact. Costs were higher before the strike for various reasons; pilots did their job and nothing else. Now we are generally willing to help out as many of my friends did on Christmas day (when they didn't have to). Even as something as requesting ramp personnel to help us taxi in instead of sitting there burning fuel saves money. That'll come to a halt if they screw with us.

Now this isn't to say I like it, I would rather help the company remain efficient without giving an concessions.

So, I have learned.

-Sky

Hopefully it won't occur in relation to the issue of concessions at Comair, but if you think that the vast majority of airline managements are the slightest bit concerned about the above quote, than you have alot to learn.

 

[chperplt]

Now we are generally willing to help out as many of my friends did on Christmas day (when they didn't have to).

Christmas day not being the norm... I've gone out and helped with baggage to get yelled at by the ramp sup..

 

[SlamClicker]

I'm speculating Delta has their planes leased thru General Electric. USAir leases their planes thru GE. In fact they have a $260 million payment due in Febuary. So, in a sense GE does have a stake in the airlines.

 

[doh]

From another thread I see Comair has the lowest casm in the rj nation. I guess that means we aren't getting new flying for some reason other than cost. Could it be to try for unneeded pay cuts. No, no, management never lies!

 

[Looking4Traffic]

Has anyone gone back and reviewed threads from the previous few years to see if any of the rumors we fret about actually come true? Perhaps it's because "worrying about the future" is the last privilege that we, as pilots still "own". It's the one thing that management can't take away from us.

Anyway, here's my prediction for the future; you guys can look it up in a few years to see if I'm correct:

Nothing much of consequence is going to happen to any of us.

Thank you. Thank you very much.

 

[N813CA]

The whole sell off of ASA or Comair is part of Delta trying to put pressure on ASA not to strike. We have all seen it before.

 

[jetflyer]

Delta management wants to KEEP the costs low for the future to put something in their empty wallets.

They pit Comair against CHQ, ASA, and Skywest to KEEP the costs from climbing in the FUTURE.

In the short run because Comair has the lowest DCI costs it is STUPID not to grow Comair, but in the long run their whipsawing and not giving Comair growth is probably smart.

For one if Comair pilots do give up say 5% of pay to gain a/c and growth then Delta can stuff more into their empty wallets and send a message to all DCI carriers that low pay rates will help your company.

The whipsawing makes every union group at all DCI carriers or prospective future DCI carriers afraid to ask for "TOO MUCH" or Gosh Forbid Comair+1%. Asking for Comair+1% just puts the bullseye on the new carrier and off of Comair for once. That's why everyone at Comair wants another union group to finally get the Comair+1%.

I guarantee just to make their point Delta will not give Comair growth without a pay cut. Their whipsawing wouldn't be effective any more if they did.

They have to keep up their whipsaw illusion. It sucks.

Jet

 

[CarjCapt]

pay cut for growth

For one if Comair pilots do give up say 5% of pay to gain a/c and growth then Delta can stuff more into their empty wallets and send a message to all DCI carriers that low pay rates will help your company.

I guarantee just to make their point Delta will not give Comair growth without a pay cut. Their whipsawing wouldn't be effective any more if they did.


That will not happen. The CMR pilots already turned down one consession for growth. The mindset hasn't changed except for the few that left CMR to Chatauqua thinking they would get PIC time sooner. They took a paycut.

 

[Clyde]

Why would Mike Ilitch, owner of Dominos Pizza, purchase the Detroit Red Wings hockey team? One thing has nothing to do with the other. General Electric makes stuff from light bulbs to dishwashers and refrigerators. They even own the NBC Television network. Their is no anti trust issue at all here. G.E. has not consulted with me yet, so I can't say specifically why they would guarantee loans to Delta, other than their reason for doing so being percieved by G.E. managers to be an investment opportunity, or perhaps protection of revenue they now enjoy from selling jet engines they make for various aircraft.

Jarhead brings up a good and interesting point with his question about why would Mike Ilitch purchase a hockey team.

First, any good financial advisor will tell you that diversification in your portfoilio is a good thing. By purchasing the Red Wings, he wasn't keeping his money all in one basket. Second, if you own the team, guess what kind of pizza is going to be for sale for the fans at all of the home games? Yep, Dominos.

"One thing has nothing to do with the other."
And sometimes that is a very good thing.


"G.E. has not consulted with me yet, so I can't say specifically why they would guarantee loans to Delta, other than their reason for doing so being percieved by G.E. managers to be an investment opportunity, or perhaps protection of revenue they now enjoy from selling jet engines they make for various aircraft."

A good investor invests (or gambles) only what they can afford to lose. My guess is that GE sees some kind of potential with DAL, enough to take a risk. And if things tank, they can probably cut their losses and run. And, with GE potentially investing some big dollars, look for them to be calling the shots. i.e., making some changes at DAL.

 

[SASewerTubeFO]

Jarhead brings up a good and interesting point with his question about why would Mike Ilitch purchase a hockey team.

First, any good financial advisor will tell you that diversification in your portfoilio is a good thing. By purchasing the Red Wings, he wasn't keeping his money all in one basket. Second, if you own the team, guess what kind of pizza is going to be for sale for the fans at all of the home games? Yep, Dominos.

"One thing has nothing to do with the other."
And sometimes that is a very good thing.

Just needed to correct a little inaccuracy being reported on here(something being posted that isn't true??Here??).

Mike Illitch own Little Ceasar's Pizza and the Detroit Tigers and the Detroit Red Wings. Tom Monahan, who Mike Illitch bought the Tigers from is the owner of Domino's.

So at all home games of the Tiger's and Red Wings the pizza of choice is Little Ceasar's.

 

[Clyde]

Just needed to correct a little inaccuracy being reported on here(something being posted that isn't true??Here??).

Mike Illitch own Little Ceasar's Pizza and the Detroit Tigers and the Detroit Red Wings. Tom Monahan, who Mike Illitch bought the Tigers from is the owner of Domino's.

So at all home games of the Tiger's and Red Wings the pizza of choice is Little Ceasar's.

SASewer,
Thanks, you're absolutely correct. I knew something didn't look quite right about that when I typed it.

 

[Marko Ramius]

It's not about being a wiseguy

I don't recall saying anything about management caring, wiseguy. I'm stating it as a fact. Costs were higher before the strike for various reasons; pilots did their job and nothing else. Now we are generally willing to help out as many of my friends did on Christmas day (when they didn't have to). Even as something as requesting ramp personnel to help us taxi in instead of sitting there burning fuel saves money. That'll come to a halt if they screw with us.

Now this isn't to say I like it, I would rather help the company remain efficient without giving an concessions.

So, I have learned.

-Sky

In your first post you say that concessions would be ill-advised because it would cost 'them' more in the long run. I can only assume 'them' is management otherwise your first post makes no sense. I actually agree with your premise that poor moral does in fact lead to decreased productivity and efficiency. For the idea to be realized though, management will have to accept the premise (ie care), and on a large scale industry-wide this is not true. We work in a industry dominated by short-term (relative) CEO's who are motivated by nothing outside of shareholder and BOD concerns, and minions of generic MBA's armed with computer models. Everybody hopes for the ideas expressed in your posts, most seem to understand the reality of them.

 

[PoorJetDriver]

Just needed to correct a little inaccuracy being reported on here(something being posted that isn't true??Here??).

Mike Illitch own Little Ceasar's Pizza and the Detroit Tigers and the Detroit Red Wings. Tom Monahan, who Mike Illitch bought the Tigers from is the owner of Domino's.

So at all home games of the Tiger's and Red Wings the pizza of choice is Little Ceasar's.

Tom Monaghan sold Domino's about 5-6 years ago for $1 Billion to an investment firm from Chicago.

 

[wms]

The whole sell off of ASA or Comair is part of Delta trying to put pressure on ASA not to strike. We have all seen it before.

It's a bluff. Back to the DAL PWA. 25% of all DAL flying has to be done by DAL WOs. If ASA or CA are sold, then the other has to double. DAL wouldn't want that.

 

[doh]

Looking4traffic,
Not worry, you can't be serious! We wouldn't be pilot's if we didn't worry (and b!tch). How's the lovely Mrs. Looking4traffic.Tell her I said hello!