Comair and Q400's

[Whitestoneclimb]

I've heard several people within the Comair flight training and flight operations departments saying that CEO Fred Buttrell was very interested in the Q400. He was quoted at the RAA this past week that he see's a resurgence of the turboprop market. Anyone have any comments or heard similar things?

 

[bvt1151]

He's been saying this for months. I don' t think there's really anything to it other than he would like to operate them prorata with some airline. I tend to agree with him about the t-prop market, and think the Q400 will be just the aircraft to do it.

Reference the article regarding USAirway's turboprops. They're going to stick around because they're profitable.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Comair's 70 seat airplane that they took concessions for might turn out to be a turboprop? Well, I would bid it. It is a neat airplane.

ASA looked hard at the Dash 8 Q 400, but several things are rumored to have turned them off. First, ramp sapce. The Q400 is a large airplane with the footprint of a 737. Second, the aiplane is another fleet type.

I think ASA should have kept the leases on the ATR-72's. They are slower than the Dash 8 Q airplanes, but they burn less fuel.

 

[bvt1151]

I don't have the language in front of me, but I'd almost guarantee the 70's will be the new 705's. They could put Q400's here, but according to the contract and LOA, they'll have to pay us CRJ700 rates. What a deal! Fly a slower aircraft for the same pay!

won't happen.

 

[Whitestoneclimb]

I don't have the language in front of me, but I'd almost guarantee the 70's will be the new 705's. They could put Q400's here, but according to the contract and LOA, they'll have to pay us CRJ700 rates. What a deal! Fly a slower aircraft for the same pay!

won't happen.

I really don't think there is much of a difference in pay from the Q400 and the CRJ70. Pay is (for the most part) based on amount of revenue that can be generated. Both have 70 seats and therefore, the same revenue. Oh sure, you can argue that you could get more aircraft utilization per day with the CRJ70 due to speed, but the Q400 is a fast aircraft. On short segments, the small difference in speed would be neglegable. I'll have to check out Horizon's pay for both the CRJ70 and the Q400.

 

[HughBeamont]

I don't have the language in front of me, but I'd almost guarantee the 70's will be the new 705's. They could put Q400's here, but according to the contract and LOA, they'll have to pay us CRJ700 rates. What a deal! Fly a slower aircraft for the same pay!

won't happen.

That the Q400 is slower isn't the issue. The issue is that it's cheaper to operate. Even if they do have to pay you CRJ700 rates, they save money.

People say that passengers don't like props as much as jets. This is a given. The question is do you want to fly from SYR-BOS on a jet for $400 round trip or on a prop for $250 round trip. The vast majority of passengers care only about cost. Their expect airline travel to be annoying.

I prefer traveling on private jets to traveling on the airlines. But I'm not going to pay $5K to take a trip in a Citation that I can take for $400 on the airlines (even if I pretend I'm not a Beech 1900 captain making $35K/yr).

 

[Q400 Gear Bitch]

I'll have to check out Horizon's pay for both the CRJ70 and the Q400.

__________________


Captains make about 10% more on the rj than the q400

 

[DashTrash400]

RJ pilots make more than Q400 pilots at QX; however, the Q400 seems to be where the (admittedly miniscule) growth is. You could pay Q400 pilots RJ wages & make more money than if they were flying the CRJ-700 - a ton more money than the CRJ-200 (RASM basis). Before the fuel prices went up, our breakeven load factor on the Q400 was something like 35%. I believe it's still under 50%.

As far as flying the Q400 vs RJ...

Plusses: BIG cockpit, lots more room than RJ; block times nearly match RJ on stage lengths <= 500 mi; you can keep the speed at 240 until a few miles from the marker, it's easy to slow down.

Minuses: Despite ANVS, still some vibration; only gets to FL250, which sucks when there's TSRAs around; those who've flown both say the RJ's FMS is better; they're a biotch to land well (tailstrike issue).

 

[N2264J]

Comair's 70 seat airplane that they took concessions for might turn out to be a turboprop?

Well, I've got to tell you, now that Mesa is in the family, I'm even more pleased with fleet guarantee the LOA provides.

We didn't have that before.

 

[geardown]

Anyone thought about Horizon buying Comair? Just a thought, I don't know much about Horizon.

 

[Q400 Gear Bitch]

Anyone thought about Horizon buying Comair? Just a thought, I don't know much about Horizon.

I thought Mesa was gonna buy everybody..............

 

[bvt1151]

My point is that if Q400's were to arrive instead of CR7's or EMB-170's as a result of the LOA, they would have to be manned at the pay of current CR7 pilots...per the contract and the LOA.

Q400's will not arrive in lieu of 70-seat RJ's resultant of the LOA.

Q400's in addition to the 25 70's would be very welcomed!

 

[NoJoy]

MESA:

Merge
Every
Small
Airline

 

[Wacopilot]

The LOA is for "Jet Aircraft"...... I would love to see th q400

Waco

 

[dvmthwsvan]

ASA pays its CRJ pilots more than its ATR pilots even though it has less seats dont they?

 

[sweptback]

ASA pays its CRJ pilots more than its ATR pilots even though it has less seats dont they?

CRJ 50 and ATR 72 pay is the same.

CRJ 70 pay is more, of course.

 

[QCappy]

Anyone thought about Horizon buying Comair? Just a thought, I don't know much about Horizon.

Not to be a smart a$$, but you proved your point by stating the question.

 

[QCappy]

Oh, and now that Horizon's Q400's have 74 seats; not only do they get paid less, but they haul around more pax than the CRJ 700's.

 

[C425Driver]

The LOA is for "Jet Aircraft"...... I would love to see th q400

Waco

Maybe I missed it in the LOA, but I didn't see anything in there about "Jet Aircraft", just the amount of passenger seats that the planes had to have.


C425Driver

 

[FDJ2]

They could put Q400's here, but according to the contract and LOA, they'll have to pay us CRJ700 rates.

Where does it say that they'll have to pay you CRJ700 rates?

Paragraph B.3 under Hourly Pay Rates

Pilots will be compensated at the seventy (70) seat pay rates currently specified in Section 3.A of the Agreement (as modified by this LOA) for any CL-700 or EMB-170 aircraft acquired by Company during the terms of this LOA so long as such aircraft are operated with a maximum of 70 seats.

Perhaps I missed it, but perhaps you could point out where CMR management is required to pay CRJ700 rates for the Q400.

 

[FDJ2]

Q400's will not arrive in lieu of 70-seat RJ's resultant of the LOA.

Are you sure of that? Where in your concessions for growth LOA does it specify that the growth aircraft you purchased through your voluntary concessions will be CRJs?


Paragraph H. Guaranteed Aircraft Deliveries/Minimum Fleet Guarantee

1. The Company shall purchase, lease or otherwise take delivery and place in revenue service thirty-five (35) aircraft in addition to the 164 currently in revenue service on the date of this LOA. No less than twenty-five (25) such aircraft shall be FAA certified at no less than seventy (70) passenger seats.


2. The Company shall take delivery and place in revenue service the additional thirty-five (35) aircraft as follows:

a. No less than eighteen (18) aircraft by December 31, 2006, including no less than eight (8) aircraft certified for not less than seventy (70) passenger seats. The fleet shall consist of and be maintained at no less than 182 aircraft in revenue service by December 31, 2006.


From the above language it looks like the acquisition of the Q400 would satisfy managements obligations under your concessions for growth LOA. If there is language in your LOA that requires that these growth aircraft are CRJs could you please share that with us.


I'm not saying that you won't get CRJ700s in return for your concessions and I'm not saying that the Q400 is any less an airframe, I just don't see the language that compels management to acquire CRJ700s in return for your concessions.

 

[Nindiri]

But would they want T-props since they would have to pay the same rates as for the CRJ700? What advantage would that give them?

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Props Rule!

A lot of the driving force here is not aircraft mission suitability but who will finance any acquistions. The Q400 and CRJ700 are both Bombardier products and they would love to keep Embraer off Comair property. Right now, Canada seems to be more willing to cough up ca$h than Brazil.

FDJ2 appears to be correct, there is no guarantee that a Q would pay identical CRJ700 rates. The assumption has always been that the reason the contract specified certified seats rather than aircraft type was that it had not been decided which jet (the CRJ700 or the ERJ170) had been selected. But a turboprop also fits into the mix and it will pay less, I can guarantee that!

There are so many cities within an hour's flight of which could justify a turboprop: SDF, LEX, CMH, CLE, CAK, PIT, DET, even ORD. It would be a nice Florida bird, too. EYW is still a Comair station.

Many people do not know that Comair was going to be the North American launch customer for the Saab 2000 so Big Ass Turboprops are not unknown here for their superior operating costs on short range flights and would give them a competitve advantage. Suddenly, most of their competitors would be falling all over themselves getting back into the turboprop business.

Now, if only they would put the Twin Otter back into production ...

 

[Otto]

It would be ironic...they would have to peel off all those 'Cincinnati, the all jet hub' stickers from the jets.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

Maybe they'll put the Q400's at mainline so all the C-130 guys can keep their David Clarks a while longer.

 

[CarjCapt]

That would be fun: CVG-LUK-CVG 25 times a day and with a heads up display how about zero zero approches into sunken lunken....woo hooo

 

[BoilerUP]

I would love to see Q400s at Comair. I never understood why they fly so many CR2s into LEX every day. I guess its because passengers like the "superior comfort" of a jet

 

[Nindiri]

Comair pilots please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the Comair contract has rates for a turboprop. That means they would have to negotiate rates before they could put the Q400 in service, and if they didn't have it by end of 2006, the LOA is dead. They have to be in revenue service flown by pilots on the Comair senority list. I doubt management would put themselves in that position.

 

[michael707767]

FWIW I have flown on a Q400 and find it much more comfortable than an RJ. As someone said for flights under an hour it would be great and probably burn less fuel than an RJ.

 

[Tomct]

Mike707: you have got to be kidding me about the q400 over a jet! The vibration alone would be enough to drive you crazy....I can feel those big props vibes from heeeerrrrrrrrreeeeeee.........!