Comair Academy

[Slick]

Rumor has it that the owners of Airline Training Academy, in Orlando, have tabled an offer to buy Comair Academy. Anyone care to substantiate, dispell, or delute that rumor or the likelihood of a deal being struck?

 

[StrykerFL]

CAA & ATA

The owners of ATA in Orlando, a bunch of Airline Pilots, were the original owners of Comair Academy. I cannot remember the name of it but it was in the late eighties and early nineties from what I can remember. If you go into ATA you can see pictures of the original school at Sanford International Airport before it Comair Aviation Academy. The original owner of ATA had started a flight school to train professional pilots and instructors as a route to the airlines. Comair Airlines apparently liked the idea and approached him about buying him out. He sold and then formed Airline Training Academy at Orlando Executive Airport. ATA is a jet direct program with specifically airline based training. Many of the procedures students do at ATA are mirrored after the airlines thus providing an “airline type training environment.” They have two stages there; Airstage 1 where you get all of your ratings, and Airstage 2 where you fly 100-hours in the Aztec in LOFT training and also learn about FMS operation, advanced systems and specific aircraft systems in the CL-65. ATA also has a Level-D CL-65 non-motion Sim. After completion you would interview with one of their contract airlines. The entire process from start to finish takes 12-24 months.

Comair Aviation Academy is simply owned by an airline, and they are very proud of that fact. The only airline type training one would get there is a checklist similar to that of the airlines, that’s it. They even go so far as to put “pushback” on their checklist. I guess it is because some piles they call airplanes might need it. Comair also has two-phases; Phase 1 is where you get all of your ratings including CFI. Upon completion of Phase 1 you would interview with Comair Academy and if they hired you, you go ahead and finish your CFII after which you are standardized and start working as an instructor. You have the option of signing an 800-hr dual given contract in which they give you $5000.00 dollars towards your MEI rating which you will utilize toward the end of your contract, and a guaranteed interview with one of their contract airlines. However, say for instance it took you 50-hours to complete your Multi-Comm add-on, you will be limited to 50-hrs dual given in the multi amounting to a total of 100-hrs multi. In other words at the 750-hr point in your 800-hr contract you will start teaching in the Seminole, after which you are cut-loose. The entire process from start to finish usually takes about 24-36 months.

As far as ATA buying CAA, I highly doubt it. CAA is making too much money to simply let it go. Examples: They get $47.00/hr for dual given of which the instructor gets $10.00/hr, A/C rates are high, ($187.00/hr Seminole), and there are a lot of unnecessary extra fees which are passed on to the student. ATA has a guaranteed program in which you pay a fixed amount no matter how long it takes. CAA simply quotes you a price based on the minimum amount of hours. Multi-Engine is usually a bankruptor for many, averaging 30-40 hours for completion. At $234.00/hr A/C & Instruction, $780.00 for ground school, $325.00 for checkride, and .5 briefing at $47.00/hr added to each flight and sims, it can become expensive real quick.

CAA however has some excellent instructors and a very structured program and for the student that needs to be pushed along it can be helpful as long as you are willing to pay for it. CAA teaches you how to be a Professional Pilot and Flight Instructor and lacks in Airline style Training.

ATA unlike CAA is a part 61 school and also has some excellent instructors, a few of them CAA graduates as well. ATA teaches you how to be a Professional Pilot as well but they also teach you Airline Procedures and more about advanced systems than CAA. They also seem to be a more direct route to the airlines.

I kinda got off the topic but I felt as though I should contrast and compare the two schools for all of the people considering attending either one. I would suggest ATA over CAA simply because if you want to become an Airline Pilot and wish to be trained like one, ATA is the better of the two. I graduated from CAA and my roommate from ATA and I liked ATA’s curriculum and atmosphere better.

I spent just under 41K at CAA for my INST/COMM/MULTI/CFI ratings and finished in a little over seven-months. I came within $100.00 of my total contract price. Contracts are quoted in groups, PVT/INST/COMM, Multi-Add-On, & CFI. I was under the contract price for INST/COMM, but the Multi Add-On took me about 27-hours to finish and that put me over. The contract is based on 20-hours to completion. I was considered an above average student for all of the ratings. For those that don’t know part 141 schools grade your performance on a Satisfactory, Unsatisfactory, and Incomplete scale. I made it through the entire program having only un-sating three Multi lessons two of which were for not leaving the Ident feature on during an NDB approach, one on a stage check. That turned out to be a $1000.00 mistake. Some instructors there are pretty bad about giving Unsats which can be very frustrating if you are having a hard time, however, others are more lenient treating the lesson how it should be, a learning experience. Too many Unsats can seriously impair a student’s confidence, however in some rare cases it is required in the face of safety.

Well that’s all I got to say about that.

 

[carlos]

I spoke with Comair this past week about their program and I heard things a little different from what you report, StrykerFL. I'd appreciate it if you could help me reconcile this information.

I was told that you take your MEI training at the 600 hour point, after which the remainder of your dual-given is Multi. The lady I spoke to said that you get at the minimum 100 hours of multi and many people get 150-200 by their 800 hour point. Are you saying that they allow you no more than 100 hours of multi (maybe so there's enough for other MEI-rated instructors, too)? Could you explain more exactly at what point you get the MEI training, how long it takes, and how many hours (is it exclusively multi time?) of dual-given multi time I should expect?

You also said that ATA provides a more direct route to the airlines. Why do you say this? Who did you interview with at the end of your 800 hours with CAA and did you get hired? Who else could you have interviewed with? Also, did your roomate at ATA get an interview immediately after the completion of the ATA program and did he get hired? Who else could he have interviewed with?

Maybe things have changed since you and your roomate graduated. When did the two of you graduate from CAA and ATA?

I know that's a lot of questions, but I think it would be useful to know. Thanks.

 

[StrykerFL]

Carlos,

First let me start off by saying that I am in no way trying convince people that Airline Training Academy is better than Comair Aviation Academy (CAA) or vice-versa. Nor am I trying to steer anyone away from either Flight School. Comair Aviation Academy and Airline Training Academy are both excellent Flight Schools however, they both have their good and bad points, as does any Flight School. I am merely posting my experience as a former student at CAA. Second, most of the people that you talk to when you visit a Flight School are salespeople and they are trying to sell you on their school. Remember that.

That being said:

I graduated CAA within the past six-months, as did my roommate from ATA. We both started at Comair about a year ago and were progressing through at about the same pace, however halfway through our Commercial-Single training my roommate and I decided to go and check ATA’s program. We were both frustrated by the political BS that goes on at as well as the overall atmosphere. These are typical frustrations that many students feel at any part 141 school. We were both very impressed with the quality of service that ATA had to offer and their facilities. They keep their enrollment size down too less than 200 were as CAA was near 350 students. Customer Service and personal attention should be # 1. This was one of the main reasons we were exploring other options. After having toured ATA my roommate decided that once he was done with his commercial-single that he was leaving for ATA. I however decided to stick it out at CAA, of which I do not entirely regret.

Around Thanksgiving I put in a request for two-weeks off during Christmas and was denied. The reason being that they couldn’t afford to let everyone go away for Christmas because it would hurt them financially. Now no matter how you look at it that is just not how you treat your customers. It was little things like this that really turned me off.

As far as the training at CAA was concerned, it was top-notch. I was fortunate enough to have some really sharp instructors. The flight-training syllabus is very through and at times extremely redundant. If you are looking to fly new airplanes though you might look elsewhere. They recently acquired something like seven new Seminoles and are trying to replace the extremely beat-up fleet of 172RG’s with Arrows. Both Flight Safety and Pan Am have a newer fleet however you will pay for it. The ground school training for the Instrument & Commercial ratings where very helpful and extremely through however, both Multi and CFI ground schools were somewhat vague and lacking in many areas. Typically all of the Ground Classes lasted around three-hours and were taught by primarily fresh Instructors. They were tough; there is a battery of tests to help prepare you for the written.

Now on to your questions:

The lady I spoke to said that you get at the minimum 100 hours of multi and many people get 150-200 by their 800 hour point. Are you saying that they allow you no more than 100 hours of multi (maybe so there's enough for other MEI-rated instructors, too)? Could you explain more exactly at what point you get the MEI training, how long it takes, and how many hours (is it exclusively multi time?) of dual-given multi time I should expect?

My experience with this matter is after having talked too several instructors there, you do typically start your MEI training around the 600 hr mark in your contract, however you still have to work as a full-time Flight Instructor. Most Instructors have 4-5 students and typically are at CAA 12-hours a day. My Multi-Instructor worked on his MEI training mostly during his days off and I think it took him around two-months to finish. You must complete their MEI ground school, get 15-hrs PIC in the twin, if you don’t already have it, do your checkride, and get standardized in the Seminole. Sounds like a lot yeah. Well it is. True you might start your MEI training at 600 hrs. but, by the time you are done you could easily be past the 700 hr. mark. The time it takes to finish your MEI training is entirely up to you though. After you complete the MEI training you will be teaching exclusively in the Seminole and maybe finish up what students you had prior to transitioning into the Multi-group. Most of the Instructors I knew finished and got their interview with approx. 100-150 hrs of dual given in the multi.

You also said that ATA provides a more direct route to the airlines. Why do you say this? Who did you interview with at the end of your 800 hours with CAA and did you get hired? Who else could you have interviewed with? Also, did your roommate at ATA get an interview immediately after the completion of the ATA program and did he get hired? Who else could he have interviewed with?

I don’t know all of the details of the training that ATA provides but it goes something like this:
1. Complete Airstage I, PVT, INST, & COMM Multi-Engine, with a Single-Engine Add-On.
2. Pay for Airstage II, (look up their website for details) when I was looking at it I think the price was around 15K.
a. Upon successful completion of Airstage II candidates complete a 121 style checkride in the CL-65 Level D sim in which recruiters from ATA’s contract airlines sit in on. Interviews are also provided.
3. Get your CFI at ATA and teach there for 1-year and Airstage II is free minus the 100-hrs LOFT training in the AZTEC.

Both ATA and CAA have a two-phase program.

CAA:
Phase 1 includes training for the following ratings: PVT, INST, COMM-SINGLE, COMM MULTI ADD-ON, & CFI
Phase 2 is where the student would work for CAA as a CFI (if hired) and upon completion of an 800-Hour dual given contract an interview would be arranged with one of their “contract airlines.”

ATA:
Airstage I includes training for the following ratings: PVT, INST, COMM-MULTI, & COMM-SINGLE ADD-ON
Airstage II consists of, CRM Ground School, General Systems Ground School, Simulator, Specific Systems Ground School, ATC-920 Simulator Training, Glass Cockpit (EFIS) Procedures Training, Canadair Regional Jet - CL-65 Flight Training Device Simulator Training

For more information on ATA’s programs go to their website:

http://www.flyhere.com

The reason I said ATA seems to be a more direct route to the airlines is because of their Airstage II program and their new Airstage III program. I have talked to ATA students that prior to 9/11 upon completing Airstage II, were hired at ATA’s “contract airlines” with a little more than 400hrs. To me that seems to be a more direct and faster route to the Regionals.

I declined an opportunity to interview with CAA pursue a Corporate or Cargo position. I decided early on in my training that I did not want to work for the Academy. Nothing against them, but it just didn’t seem like the type of place that I wanted to work for. I am instructing PT elsewhere to build the required 135 minimums for most Cargo operations.

You have some very good questions and I hope that you take the time to visit all of the Flight Schools in Florida before making a decision. I didn’t and really wish I had. Flight-Safety, Pan-Am, Embry-Riddle, Florida Tech, and ATP all have excellent programs. I was recently down at the Pan-Am campus and I was very impressed. They have new airplanes and housing right there on airport property. I think that they also have an agreement with AIRNET.

The industry is in a state of limbo right now and who knows how much longer the Regionals will be hiring. Take a look at your long-term career goals. Corporate and Cargo both seem to be sure things right now, so maybe take a look at schools with a track towards that end of the business. If you started at Comair tomorrow it would take a minimum of two-years maybe even 2.5yrs before you would be able to interview with their airlines and two-years right now might as well be two-hundred. Nobody knows what is going to happen to the Airline Industry, right now they can only speculate.

My thought is as follows:
1. Majors are furloughing and will continue to furlough pilots.
2. Majors are parking or decommissioning their aircraft in order to downsize. Ex. Delta down 25%.
3. It could be years before the Majors begin to recall pilots, and even longer to start hiring new pilots.
4. If war with Iraq breaks out, oil prices will rise, current ticket prices will no longer cover operating costs and the now extremely fragile airlines will be on the verge of collapse and we will be competing with thousands pilots for those few precious jobs.
5. As long as Regional are adding new equipment they will be hiring but how long will that last?
6. Average upgrade time at a Regional 1.5 – 2 years.
7. No movement at the top means that eventually no movement at the Regionals. When the Regionals quit buying new equipment upgrades will be non-existent.

I’m not trying to sound negative about the future of our profession but right now who knows where it is going. My hope is that it begins to improve and all of our fellow furloughed pilots can soon go back to work. I hope that my shared experiences will help you decide which route is best for you.

Good-Luck.Airstage I

 

[carlos]

Thanks for the detailed and objective reply, StrykerFL. That will help me a lot. Your perspective on the airline versus cargo industries seems on target, since companies will still need to move their products to market and to customers, whereas people may defer vacation and business travel more readily.

I'm considering Comair and ATA at this time, although sticking with my local FOB might be the best option. The major or only reason that I would go to an out-of-state school is for their claimed connections with certain airlines.

Comair Aviation Academy seems to be the most tightly connected to an airline (being owned by Comair airlines), which is why I was wondering about how that interview process works. Even if that doesn't work out, I'll still have all my ratings and a 1000+ hours total time, and anywhere from 100-200 multi hours, which is well on the way to the minimums for many cargo and regional airline.

ATA has an internship program with Atlantic Coast Airlines, and they also list American Eagle, Trans States, and Discover Air as designated airlines. ATA, through stage III, comes out at about 700 hours (I believe) with 435 of that as multi time, and 300 of that 435 as SIC turbine time with Ameriflight (most likely). Looking at their syllabus, their training appears very comprehensive, but I haven't seen a similar syllabus for Comair, so I can't compare. ATA has some perception issues as PFT, because of it's Stage III program with Ameriflight, but you can argue that either way.

Thanks again for all the information!

 

[bobbysamd]

Flight schools

I believe that Comair was known as Airline Aviation Academy before Comair purchased it in the mid to late '80s. I recall that at least one airline captain owned the place.

I've worked at Riddle, FlightSafety and Mesa, and a couple of other places. I interviewed at Comair and was turned off. All schools can try your patience, even (or because or especially) if you work there. They do it in different ways, but it amounts to the same thing. I can understand where Comair might be coming from regarding revenue loss, but they went about explaining it to you the wrong way. I put myself in the student's position. I would think of it in terms of me paying money and giving a d@mn less about the school's "revenues." And, thinking of myself, I would be concerned about losing momentum if I take off a couple of weeks. That's how the school should approach its reasoning about why you shouldn't take off.

I remember that FlightSafety made a big deal by pushing students and making sure they kept up with the program. But, believe me, it was for their own good. FSI is an accelerated program and accelerated programs feed off momentum. Put the brakes on it and you may well experience a loss of proficiency that may take time to regain.

Let me plug Mesa briefly. I'll begin by saying that I don't like Mesa. I don't like the company at all because of my experiences. I do like MAPD because it works. As long as you do what you're supposed to do and perform reasonably well, you'll get "the interview" at 300 hours and maybe hired. That is as good as a "direct connection" that you will find. The training is good and you get a two-year Aviation Technology degree out of the deal. Your Commercial is good anywhere (as is Comair's). Two downsides might be that if you don't get "the interview" you might have to get a single-engine Commercial and your CFI and instruct, and Mesa's hiring situation, i.e. need for pilots and/or need for Freedom Air pilots.

Just more food for thought. Hope it helps. Good luck with your decision.