CJ and Citation II numbers

[SheGaveMeClap]

I've got a friend who was going in on a Bravo with a partner, but that partner backed out. Now he's still looking for a jet, but the budget is cut in half, it's roughly $2.5-2.7 million. We have a handful of Citations on the field, so the mx shop can work on them. He's a Citation fan, so it seems that's the brand he's seeking. I guess the only options would be a CJ and an older Citation II for that price?

Does anyone have real world numbers for a CJ and Citation II? Speed? Range with full seats? Range with one or two pax? It seems the numbers are pretty weak for a CJ, but range improves with a II. I know they are all terribly slow, but this is what I have to work with.

Thanks in advance for any replies.....

Clap

 

[CapnVegetto]

I've got a friend who was going in on a Bravo with a partner, but that partner backed out. Now he's still looking for a jet, but the budget is cut in half, it's roughly $2.5-2.7 million. We have a handful of Citations on the field, so the mx shop can work on them. He's a Citation fan, so it seems that's the brand he's seeking. I guess the only options would be a CJ and an older Citation II for that price?

Does anyone have real world numbers for a CJ and Citation II? Speed? Range with full seats? Range with one or two pax? It seems the numbers are pretty weak for a CJ, but range improves with a II. I know they are all terribly slow, but this is what I have to work with.

Thanks in advance for any replies.....

Clap

I'm a captain on the old II's I can help you here.


Fuel burn is 1400 lbs first hour, 1000 lbs each hour after that(for planning purposes. It's actually a little less). With a fuel capacity of 5008 lbs, that's about 4.5 hours of fuel with no reserves. Take it up higher and those #'s go up. You can step climb an old II right up to 400 or 410 at max gross. Takes forever to speed back up, but once you get up there, you're only burning about 900 lbs an hour and getting 330 to 340 knots. That'll give you about a 1,200 mile range will full fuel with no wind & reserves. To give you a slight idea, I flew from Madison, WI to Mobile, AL a few days ago. Took off with 2100 lbs a side (4200 lbs total) for the approx. 800 mile trip. Had a slight tailwind, but only went to 350. I landed with about 950 a side. So I burned 2300 lbs of fuel on that trip. Probably could've knocked a couple hundred or more off of that if I'd gone up higher. If you take it up to 430, (ceiling), your fuel burn in in the 770 lb an hour range. You can fly forever in the darn thing, it's just not too fast.

Runway performance is good, unless you're high and hot of course. On a normal hot day, around 1000 feet or so of field elevation, at max gross, you need around 3000 to 4000 feet to takeoff. Little less for landing at max. To get the runway requirement up to even 6000 feet you need 100+ degrees at max gross weight and 2500 feet of field elevation. Piece of cake.

Weight isn't good. The plane is nose heavy, so you need stuff in the back to balance it out. 13,300 MTOW, and with full fuel, you're at about 13,000 lbs with 2 pilots on board. This, of course, sucks. However, if you can find one with the increased weight mod, you can get the MTOW up to 14,500 lbs which is a LOT better.

Can't help you with the CJ, but the old II is a dang good airplane. I love 'em. Hope this helps!

 

[FlyFlyFly]

OK here goes for the II, all from memory:

roughly 9,000 BEW
13,300 MTOW or 14,500 with a mod.

Carries about 5,000 lbs of fuel, burns 1500, 1100, and 1000 thereafter
Cruises at 365 on a good day, 350 on a bad one.
Summer cruise altitudes are best in the low 30s.

Rarely needs more than 4,500 ft of runway with a 1,000 ft field elev.

Whip out your calculator and you can work out most of your answers.

 

[puddlejumper]

ZFW Mod

There's a zero fuel weight mod for the 550s too. Standard is 9800 lbs. BEW is more like 8500 lbs on the early model IIs. With the 9800 lb ZFW, Vmo is something like 276 kias. With the mod, ZFW is upped to 11,000 lbs but it lowers the Vmo to 262 kias. That's pretty slow.

We've been operating non-RVSM with our '78 model. Expect a good 40% increase in fuel burn at FL280. 1600 1st hr, 1400 2nd and 1300 3rd. Best speed though at FL280, 104% N1, about 370 ktas. Need FL350 to get down to 1000 pph and an honest 355, 360 ktas.

The Bravo will true out at closer to 390 kts though with the newer generation P&W engines, plus nice trailing link gear.

Look into the aft baggage mod for the earlier IIs. We don't have it, but I wish we did. With 7 seats filled, ya need to put like 100 pounds in the the lav baggage area. That's a pain in the butt.

-PJ

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

Thanks alot for the replies. Those II numbers help out. Anybody have any numbers for the straight CJ?

 

[rchcfi]

Weight isn't good. The plane is nose heavy, so you need stuff in the back to balance it out. 13,300 MTOW, and with full fuel, you're at about 13,000 lbs with 2 pilots on board. This, of course, sucks. However, if you can find one with the increased weight mod, you can get the MTOW up to 14,500 lbs which is a LOT better.

We have 2 C550s. One is a pre -627 and the one I fly is one of the "Classic" (why they call it that I don't know) models. This is a post -627 model with the factory MTOW of 14,100. Everything CapnVegetto said is right on about being a nose heavy beast. If we carry more than 4 pax, we have to add our 150lbs. of ballast to the aft baggage compartment. Also, you are trying to lift more weight with the same engines, so these later models are dogs. On a good day without having to use Eng A/I, it takes us 25 mins or 100 NM to get to FL350. On a recent trip, we departed an airport at MTOW and immediately started picking up ice. With A/I on and a trace on the leading edges, we could only muscle our way up to FL280, where it said "I wanna climb no more!" Luckily we were able to pop out of the tops around FL290 and get that A/I off allowing us to continue the climb. I think that put the record of getting to FL340 at 1 hour....UGGGH

Our older model does 2,000 fpm up to FL180, 1,500 fpm to FL280, and holds 1,000 fpm up to FL350. Mine gets no where near that performance. We get no more than 500 fpm after about FL290....

 

[ManChild]

Are you looking for a CJ or a CJ1, CJ2? We have a CJ and it doesn't do well for much of anything. Max TO is 10400. Which means we can top it off and have one maybe two people (Two pilots and No or very little bags.) If you want to fill it up with people, 5 pax, you can take a couple hours worth of fuel. It will average about 370 in the lower 30s. Good airplane for short routes, not for long stuff. Really easy to fly though.